Encompassing Licenses?

[Roberts]

But its the CPA signing the returns I'll bet. That's the way it is in CA; staff might preparer the return but the CPA is ultimately responsible for the prep. If you don't check it over before signing, you'd be an idiot.

See to me, that's fraud and misrepresentation. If I paid for the services of a CPA and they had a non-licensed kid doing the work, I wouldn't just be walking, I'd be doing some yelling. Imagine any other profession where you hire a licensed professional and they had a lacky do the work. Ouch that would make me mad.

I earned a new client last year who had this sort of problem. He interviewed a CPA and hired him to do his accounting and tax work. He never saw the CPA ever again and only dealt with a woman who he thought was a CPA. It ticked him off because he had hired the owner of the firm and now he's getting a 24 year old young lady with very little experience. Turns out upon further investigation she wasn't a CPA or EA. JMO but that sort of thing hurts all of us.

[joanmcq]

jeez, you've never worked at a big firm, have you? staff accountants prepare the returns; could be CPAs or EAs or working for their license. You need two years experience to get a CPA license, besides the education & passing the test. How the heck do you think you get that? The draft of the return goes to a tax manager. The manager (CPA or EA) reviews it, and if it is ok it goes to the partner. The partner reviews it and signs the return.

Crud, when I was starting my biz I worked for another CPA that had too much work. Her clients, she signed the return. But she checked my work, line by line.

[OtisMozzetti]

CA CTEC registration requirements

...That's the way it is in CA; staff might preparer the return but the CPA is ultimately responsible for the prep....

In California, anyone other than a federally-authorized tax practitioner who even "assists" in preparation of a return for pay has to be registered with CTEC. Registration with CTEC requires completion of a federal and California tax course (about 66 hours), posting of a bond, and submission of an application and application fee. Renewal requires 30 hours of continuing education each year, with a portion of that education required to deal with California taxation. The requirements can be verified at www.ctec.org.

[geekgirldany]

The accounting firm I worked for had me prepare the returns but the accountant would sign them. Even though I dealt with the customers directly my boss never called me a tax preparer. I was the "admin assistant". Anyways I learned alot there on basic tax return prep. I also had a new customer this year because he never saw the CPA. He said it was the "data entry" person he saw. But that data entry person was probably a tax preparer... like I really was

[joanmcq]

from the CTEC website

"Generally speaking, CPAs, Attorneys, Enrolled Agents and anyone employed by these individuals are exempt from the Act. (For a full description of all requirements to be exempt see Section 22258)".

As a staff accountant for a CPA firm, we 'assistants' were NOT required to register with CTEC. Nor are they now.

[Black Bart]

Otis & Rob

from the CTEC website "Generally speaking, CPAs, Attorneys, Enrolled Agents and anyone employed by these individuals are exempt from the Act. (For a full description of all requirements to be exempt see Section 22258)".As a staff accountant for a CPA firm, we 'assistants' were NOT required to register with CTEC. Nor are they now.

Better watch your step, boys -- that girl's a pretty tough cookie. You cain't hardly get ahead of her 'cause she doesn't generally post anything unless she knows whereof she speaks.

[joanmcq]

that's awfully nice Bart! I thank thee for the compliment..

words like 'fraud & misrepresentation' tend to get my dander up...

[Nashville]

Delegation of Duties

If you haven't lived in a small town, you might not know how typical this is.

Owners of small-town businesses tend to hire family and friends. Regardless of whether they are capable or not. Bankers hire daughters of wealthy depositors to be tellers, If you are not one of the "beautiful people," growing up in towns like this means you cut your occupational skills by forking manure and cleaning restrooms. In my youth, I did my share.

When I was younger we had a CPA in our town who was really good, and had the "common touch" with everyone. A ragtag truck driver friend of mine signed away his soul to the bank operating two units and had this guy fill out his taxes. After the appointment, the CPA would take him to his fridge and pop open a couple beers and talk for about thirty minutes.

CPA took a job somewhere and sold his practice to another CPA but this guy was a stuffed shirt. Hired his blue-blood condescending mother to work the front office. Trucker went to have his taxes done, and CPA told him to leave his stuff with his mother, and would call him in a few days. Never saw the trucker again.

That was the last appointment the trucker had with him, and asked me to do his tax work from then forward. That was over 20 years ago, and the rag-tag trucker now owns 30 rigs and a $5MM company. Moral of this true story? Rather obvious don't you think? Hire me, and your business will grow by leaps and bounds!!

(Well, I don't think I fooled anyone - there IS different moral to the story)

[OtisMozzetti]

assisting with tax returns

...
"Generally speaking, CPAs, Attorneys, Enrolled Agents and anyone employed by these individuals are exempt from the Act. (For a full description of all requirements to be exempt see Section 22258)".
...

Those employed by the types of individuals listed are not exempt from the Act for tax returns which they prepare that aren't in the course of their employment with those individuals or, furthermore, which aren't signed by those individuals.

Section 22251 of the Business & Professions Code:
(a)(1) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (2), "tax preparer includes:
(A) A person who, for a fee or other consideration, assists with or prepares tax returns for another person ...


If the employees of a CPA, Attorney, or Enrolled Agent prepare a tax return which is outside their employment, or which isn't signed by that CPA, Attorney, or Enrolled Agent, then that employed person must get registered with CTEC.

According to this discussion, those who drop off their tax papers with a CPA will have to worry that their return actually was prepared behind the scenes by an unregistered person and then signed by that CPA.

[joanmcq]

Uh, Otis, I was talking about returns prepared in the course of employment. Big firm, no, the partner is schmoozing with the clients and the staff is doing the returns. Reviewed by the upper echelon, compiled into nice folders by the clerical staff. If I did any on the side while unlicensed, then I would have to get a CTEC. But I didn't.

And anyone that drops off their papers with a big firm, no the partner is not doing data entry or making the files. My firm, yeah I'm doing the work. I dont' have any assistants. Same with a big EA office. They (the unlicensed staff) are being closely supervised by the licensed individuals who are signing the returns. So what is your issue?

[Black Bart]

Dear tough (and smart) cookie,

that's awfully nice Bart! I thank thee for the compliment..

Thou art welcome, Sister Joan.


Regards,
Brother Bart

[Roberts]

jeez, you've never worked at a big firm, have you?

If a client thinks they are paying for 20 hours of service by a CPA and instead are paying for 19 hours of a secretary and 1 hour of a CPA, that is fraud and misrepresentation. A professional who has attained the education and passed their CPA exam is one thing, a secretary who took a 2-day training program for the software is completely different.

Imagine if you went to your doctors office and the medical secretary was the person who handled your case. Why should you complain? The doctor signed off on everything right? It's not like there are important questions that should have been asked or small pieces of information that make all the difference between choices of treatment.

[joanmcq]

At these firms they are getting 15 hours of a staff accountant (not someone who has passed a 2 hour course BTW, but someone with an accounting degree working towards their CPA or a senior staff accountant who is a CPA) 2 hours of a senior manager, 1.5 hour of the partner signing the return, and 1.5 hours of the clerical staff that prints and assembles it. My point is that the staff accountants are not licensed by CTEC and do not have their CPA licenses yet. They are supervised by CPAs or EAs and do not need a CTEC.

and no, the clients should know they are not paying for 20 hours of the partner. the bill would be 2-4 times as much if they were.

[Roberts]

At these firms they are getting 15 hours of a staff accountant (not someone who has passed a 2 hour course BTW, but someone with an accounting degree working towards their CPA or a senior staff accountant who is a CPA) 2 hours of a senior manager, 1.5 hour of the partner signing the return, and 1.5 hours of the clerical staff that prints and assembles it. My point is that the staff accountants are not licensed by CTEC and do not have their CPA licenses yet. They are supervised by CPAs or EAs and do not need a CTEC.

and no, the clients should know they are not paying for 20 hours of the partner. the bill would be 2-4 times as much if they were.

Your point is not consistent with most of the smaller CPA firms. Especially in my area of the country.

[joanmcq]

That's why I started out my comments in this discussion with "you've never worked at a big firm, have you?"