On the economy

[thomtax]

Hang on John

I'm intrigued by how civil this one is. Many times when the discussion strays into the political arena, people start sharpening their swords. It's gratifying to see that sort of thing not happening here.

I'm still trying to find my dadgum sword and get it out without cutting myself. :-)

LT

[JohnH]

oops.
I spoke up too soon???

Guess I need to break out the whetstone.

[Black Bart]

With a few exceptions,

I read it and (although I don't want to start a political tussle here) the only thing I find wrong with the article is that I didn't write it myself. I've been thinking most of what's in there for the better part of 2 years now, which has strained some very dear friendships I enjoy. So I've gravitated mostly to keeping these thoughts to myself & discussing them primarily with my family..

I agree with your sentiments and I've strained a few relationships myself (my father-in-law says he will "furnish the rope and pay all expenses to hang that SOB"). He also complains that "nobody in the world likes us anymore" and to which I reply "it's not liking that matters in foreign policy, it's respect that counts."

Still, I'm quite at odds with myself over this election -- while I can't speak for other regions, the economy here (disagreeing with the prez) IS in the cellar. That's largely thanks to NAFTA; I know-I know; Bill started it, but the GOP has taken that ball and run with it, even proposing a CAFTA (Central American...) now and that's killed every factory in sight down South. They say it's a two-way street, but no Mexican factories have moved in here. How 'bout your town?

So...what to do? I like McCain (think he's honest) but wouldn't he have to follow the will of the big business party? Good grief' what a choice -- vote against everything I'm for (go Dem) or starve to death.

[veritas]

The numbers

don't indicate your state's economy is in the tank. Your unemployment rate is lower than Oregon (around 4.1%). Major auto manufacturers are moving into your state (starting with Mercedes), the latest being KIA with a one billion dollar plant. I read an article which stated per capita income increased 23% from 2002 to 2006.

Here we have a major company, Freightliner which is busily moving out and going to the south. I think if we didn't have coffee shops and tattoo parlors a major part of our economy would dissapear.

As a side note manufacturing output in the US has increased in recent years and China has lost some 25 million manufacturing jobs.

[Snaggletooth]

What are you reading??

Veritas, what on earth have you been reading, and whoever wrote it has not been in Arkansas, or anywhere else in the rural South.

Arkansas, Georgia, Alabama, Tenn, KY, etc. take turns bending over backwards to give these giant plants tax-free incentives to come here, and for every job we gain in such plants, we lose ten to Mexico and China. And for jobs that physically can't be sent off (like agriculture, logging, nurseries, etc.) the big companies bring in illegals so we can distinctively hear Ross Perot's "Giant Sucking Sound" in our own hometown.

We have low unemployment because for every $25/hr job we lose in a manufacturing plant, we gain a $5/hr job because WalMart will build a new store. Per capital income is somewhat steady because Social Security and Federal retirements go up every year. Worker wages have declined since 1999. 23-26%?? These guys must be on LSD!

Look in the Tax Book on some of the informational pages at Federal Tax collections over the last 8-10 years and see how America's workers are really doing. Of course we can blame the Bush tax cuts for some of this, but they obviously haven't brought the rousing recovery we were told.

I will grant that there are a few hotbeds of strong economy in limited places. Extreme Northwest Arkansas, Huntsville, AL; the Golden Triangle of North Carolina, etc. But precious few.

I have a customer who bids government contracts in every state, and I know Oregon is having a miserable economy at present, along with several other states. But if looking for a lost economy, better look somewhere other than someone's delusional vision of the rural South.

[veritas]

Here is some articles

http://www.al.com/business/birminghamnews/junderwood.ssf?/base/business/1200215708216251.xml&coll=2

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2008/01/xperts_alabamas_economy_to_far.html

http://www.governorpress.alabama.gov/pr/pr-2008-01-11-01-poverty_down.asp

State unemployment rates

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/state_unemployment/index.html

Illegals are a problem I agree. Alabama needs to do what Oklahoma did. Their unemployment rate has dropped since they imposed stiff penalties for hiring illegals. However I don't believe the majority of illegals are hired by large evil corporations. I think it's mostly small business. I see them every morning loading up at a local 7-11, getting ready for their day of landscaping, framing, painting, sheet rocking, roofing and so on.

[Black Bart]

I believe that's Alabama you're talkin' about,

(the numbers) don't indicate your state's economy is in the tank. Your unemployment rate is lower than Oregon (around 4.1%). Major auto manufacturers are moving into your state (starting with Mercedes), the latest being KIA with a one billion dollar plant. I read an article which stated per capita income increased 23% from 2002 to 2006.

or at least I'm unaware of any Mercedes or KIA plants in Arkansas. But, even if those figures were true, I've never seen statistics which could not be made to jump through hoops and prove a case which is not the case.

I guess people get tired of Southern poor-mouthin', but I don't mean to say that we're the only depressed regions (doubtless, Oregon has problems too). Again, I can't speak for other regions, but the evidence is right before our eyes here. My wife's small retail shop sales were down 1/3 last year -- began declining two years ago because it depends on discretionary money which is no longer available. We lost three local factories to NAFTA and several more in nearby towns -- as Snag said, some of those people now work for Wal-Mart. Commercial rental space is going begging.

I saw a GOP legislator quoted on C-Span, to wit: "The gross national product is out of sight!" To which; the interviewer aptly replied "What difference does that make if nobody has a job?"

[Zee]

I feel "all alone" here.

All this talk, now has me wondering...

How much money has been spent on the Iraq war since it's inception, and how does it compare to the deficit?

What would the unemployment/employment numbers look like without those employed in the Iraq war effort in industry, etc.?

I'm not interested in a debate on whether we belong in Iraq or not, or other arguments.

I'm a Vietnam Vet (not that it matters), but for those of you that think this question might be critical of our military.

Frankly, this post is getting far too political, and I'm contributing. I'm not sure it really belongs on this board, so I won't respond or add any other posts (but I am interested in your answers data only).

[JohnH]

I agree with your sentiments and I've strained a few relationships myself (my father-in-law says he will "furnish the rope and pay all expenses to hang that SOB"). He also complains that "nobody in the world likes us anymore" and to which I reply "it's not liking that matters in foreign policy, it's respect that counts."

Still, I'm quite at odds with myself over this election -- while I can't speak for other regions, the economy here (disagreeing with the prez) IS in the cellar. That's largely thanks to NAFTA; I know-I know; Bill started it, but the GOP has taken that ball and run with it, even proposing a CAFTA (Central American...) now and that's killed every factory in sight down South. They say it's a two-way street, but no Mexican factories have moved in here. How 'bout your town?

So...what to do? I like McCain (think he's honest) but wouldn't he have to follow the will of the big business party? Good grief' what a choice -- vote against everything I'm for (go Dem) or starve to death.

I heard a great political quote on the radio this AM.
When Adlai Stevenson was campaigning for president, a lady in the crowd shouted "Every thinking person in the country is voting for you!" To which Adlai Stevenson replied, "Madam, that isn't enough - I need a majority!"

[Black Bart]

I've got one!

I heard a great political quote on the radio this AM.
When Adlai Stevenson was campaigning for president, a lady in the crowd shouted "Every thinking person in the country is voting for you!" To which Adlai Stevenson replied, "Madam, that isn't enough - I need a majority!"

Congressman John Steven McGroarty of California; Letter to a constituent - 1934 (Excerpted from Profiles in Courage -- John F. Kennedy).

"One of the countless drawbacks of being in Congress is that I am compelled to receive impertinent letters from a jackass like you in which you say I promised to have the Sierra Madre mountains reforested and I have been in Congress two months and haven't done it. Will you please take two running jumps and go to hell."

[Nashville]

You could have expected this

Veritas, what on earth have you been reading?

Exactly the point. Veritas did provide the sources - Three websites, plus another showing unemployment stats. (Also looks like he was reading about Alabama)

Two of them are websites sponsored by the Birmingham News. Another sponsored by the governor's press secretary.

Among the last three places I would go to find anything objective.

Y'all c'mon down here and see for yoreselfs!!

"Figures lie and Liars figure" - Harry Truman on why pollsters predicted his 1948 defeat

[veritas]

Doh!



I'm deifinitely into the senior moment.