On the economy

[Black Bart]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20080506/NATION01/25856805

Yuk-yuk...well, the president and I agree on quite a few things after all (with the exception of the economy and gasoline prices, both of which about I am constantly whining).

[Black Bart]

Nobody wants to say anything about George?

We must all be really sick of it.

[JohnH]

I read it and (although I don't want to start a political tussle here) the only thing I find wrong with the article is that I didn't write it myself. I've been thinking most of what's in there for the better part of 2 years now, which has strained some very dear friendships I enjoy. So I've gravitated mostly to keeping these thoughts to myself & discussing them primarily with my family..

[DTS]

My two cents...

are to echo John's post, word for word. Unfortunately, I think this country is headed in a direction it deserves.

Good article. Thanks for sharing it.

Dennis

[joanmcq]

'the government, not your wallet, is where the money comes from'....from the guy that thought up this idiotic stimulus payment?

I went to France in 2000, and the Euro was worth 85 cents. Now its worth $1.50. But I am scarfing up repo houses for rentals, so I'll have some income now that interest rates are back down to 2% on savings. And the tax law is now even more convoluted so my biz is booming. And since the governments are broke, audits are on the rise. Like I said, biz is booming! Good thing too, since food prices are going up faster than gas. I should go into farming in the off season?

Now as long as people can afford to pay me I'll be ok.

[Black Bart]

I've noticed this a lot lately.

...food prices are going up faster than gas...

We used to be able to eat out cheaper than fixing stuff at home, but no more.

Another thing is that the price of formerly cheap fast foods like burgers and KFC-type stuff is now higher than a steak at Western Sizzler.

[Black Bart]

Ethanol

When a restaurant buys quality steaks they are now paying more for those than they are for Alaskan King Crab. Why? Crabs do not feed off corn. We are turning food into fuel, bad idea. Flour has increased 4 or 5 fold over the last few years because farmers are plowing down the wheat to plant corn. Down in Brazil the farmers are slashing and burning rainforest to plant sugar cane and corn (two items they are using to turn into fuel) and the environmentalists think ethanol is going to lower CO2. Why? Because they are stupid.

There's been a lot of talk about this for the last several years, but I don't really know anything about it other than it's supposed to be mixed with gas. We don't have any gas stations here that offer it that I know of (or maybe it just regular gas with some of that mixed in?)

Do they have separate pumps for it and is it sold at stations in Michigan? Can ordinary cars run on it or do they have to be modified?

I guess you're saying we are cutting our throats by eliminating food crops to raise ethanol-derivative crops; therefore raising food costs while lowering fuel costs?

[thomtax]

Couple of things

1. While we don't have it here, I have been to several stations in the state, that on the pump there is a sign that says, "May contain up to 10% ethanol". It is mixed in with the gas.

2. It is my understanding, IF you can believe the documentaries, that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than it saves.

3. I have criticized ethanol since it started and before it became a popular thing. My comment has always been - So more and more of the farm land used to produce food is being taken up for sub-divisions and now they are going to take this food to make fuel for vehicles. How is this going to help us and what do we eat if they stop producing grains for food?

Ok, Ok, so it is three items - not a couple.:-)

LT

[Matt Sova]

E-85

Regular fuel here in Michigan is 10% ethanol. A few stations carry E-85 which is 85% ethanol and you need a flex fuel vehicle for it to work in your car. It is set up as a separate pump. If E-85 was not subsidized it would cost around $7/gallon, however, due to the subsidy it is 50 - 60 less per gallon than regular gas. Sounds great doesn't it? Well there is another problem, it burns faster so your fuel efficiency decreases.

My wifes Jeep is FlexFuel and she has run the numbers a few times with regular fuel and E-85. Overall it costs the same due to the decreased efficiency. So in our own way of saying no to E-85 we fill up with regular fuel.

Matt

[JohnH]

Since this thread is going off in all sorts of wierd directions and it's Friday, I'll post a little story about something being turned into something it wasn't meant to be.

Years ago, my father-in-law (Sam) and his real estate developer partner (Carl) were telling me about a farm they had puchased in an estate sale. Over several years, I heard the story repeated many times. Along with the farm came some cattle (a dozen or so I believe). They intended to sub-divide the farm and sell off the lots at auction. Since winter was approaching they decided to hold off until the next spring for the land sale, but they didn't think about what do do with the cattle over the winter.

This story generally took about an hour to tell, as Sam & Carl would reminisce about how winter progressed and they would sell a cow or two and use the proceeds to buy some grain to feed the remaining cows. After a month or so they would have to sell another, and so on. Each part of the story would include how much each cow weighed, what it sold for per pound, how much grain that purchased, and how many weeks that would feed the remaining cows. As time passed, the cows got leaner, so they were getting less per cow while the cost of the grain kept going higher. By springtime, they had sold all but one cow, so they had it butchered and they split the meat between them.

After telling the story, Carl would turn to Sam and say "You know, we never made a dime on those cows". To which Sam would reply, "Yep, we just kept them until they ate one another up."

A good lesson in unintended consequences.

[joanmcq]

Brazil fuels most of its vehicles on ethanol, but they make it from sugar cane, which is much more efficient than corn. In fact, corn is remarkably inefficient, but the corn producing states have a very good lobby. so now corn producers are making money hand over fist because the current admin decreed that corn ethanol would be required. However, they are also getting subsidies to grow the stuff that are left over from when corn went for food, and we grew too much of it, so prices were low. There is an area in Kansas where housing prices are actually going up and unemployment down because they grow corn and have oil. The environmentalists as a whole decried the ethanol mandate due to the inefficiencies and amount of petroleum based fertilizers that go into growing the stuff as well. Environmentally friendly biofuels come from recycling waste products (like used cooking oil), not converting food into fuel.

[Snaggletooth]

Conservative Party

We must all be really sick of it.

Y'know, we really are. I know this whole thing is off-topic, but it amazes me that most of my conservative friends keep voting for GOP candidates because (especially in this part of the country) they hold up conservative values in the face of "evil onslaughts by those horrible liberals."

Regardless of how any of you feel about any of these topics, there is an attraction between conservative people and candidates who espouse anti-gun control, anti-abortion, and the Christian right on social issues.

I can assure you my lifestyle is more conservative than most of you. However, my big problem with voting for the GOP is even though you hear this conservative rhetoric, when they get in office they do absolutely nothing about these things. It is much more important to them to sell out to the multinational corporations and stab American workers in the back.

I lean Democratic, but can't really crawl in bed with these tax-and-spend liberal platforms. If any of us were as politically active as our mouths, we would join forces and create a third party.

[Zee]

Y'know, we really are. I know this whole thing is off-topic, but it amazes me that most of my conservative friends keep voting for GOP candidates because (especially in this part of the country) they hold up conservative values in the face of "evil onslaughts by those horrible liberals."

Regardless of how any of you feel about any of these topics, there is an attraction between conservative people and candidates who espouse anti-gun control, anti-abortion, and the Christian right on social issues.

I can assure you my lifestyle is more conservative than most of you. However, my big problem with voting for the GOP is even though you hear this conservative rhetoric, when they get in office they do absolutely nothing about these things. It is much more important to them to sell out to the multinational corporations and stab American workers in the back.

I lean Democratic, but can't really crawl in bed with these tax-and-spend liberal platforms. If any of us were as politically active as our mouths, we would join forces and create a third party.

Snag-

I always thought I was a conservative, now I'm a liberal (at least seem to be according to the new definitions). After 8 years of Dubya George, I'm going to be a Democrat. I'd vote for Beavis or Butthead before I'd vote Republican again. I thought the original post was "funny", but it contained little I actually aree with.

[DTS]

Politics

There's just no end to a political discussion like this, eh?

Dennis

[JohnH]

I'm intrigued by how civil this one is. Many times when the discussion strays into the political arena, people start sharpening their swords. It's gratifying to see that sort of thing not happening here.