Here it comes!

[Snaggletooth]

Yes, the tax deadline is passed, and your software company is already trying to squeeze you out of next year's software payment. As has become a tradition on this board (probably inadvertently, and certainly with no wisdom aforethought), now is the time to turn our attention to software evaluation.

I'll just open the door this time and let others comment. But there are a couple items of interest that bear mentioning.

First, I believe everyone who uses ATX is in shell-shock . As in the case of any corporate buy-out, the successor corporation has no intention of leaving the product alone -- no intention of providing the same level product at the same price level. For any of you who believed CCH, you should have known better. Sorry.

Secondly, the tax software business, like any other, is consolidating. Fewer packages being developed, and fewer owners. This is the natural order of economics, and particularly in an environment where anti-trust legislation cannot be counted on. As practitioners, we should do whatever we can to mitigate extra cost and extra headaches.

As surely as big fish will swallow the little fish, just as surely will there be pressure and innovation for cost savings. When copper gets too expensive, users turn to plastic. When gas gets too expensive, people drive smaller cars. There have been virtually no new entries among tax software offerors in years -- the explosion of tax software in the 80s and 90s has stopped and the consolidation process is ongoing. The existing software packages are so far ahead in development that it is practically impossible for a newcomer to enter the market. There are some 6-8 companies or thereabouts.

Intuit Pro Series (not counting TurboTax), OrrTax, TaxAct, LaCerte, TaxSlayer, Drake, TaxWise, TaxCut (if you want to count it), ATX, and maybe another 1-2 I haven't thought of at the moment.

The reason this forum is more important this year than ever before: I think many ATX users may be looking for another product. I sense alienation to the extent never felt before.
They are bracing for a whopping increase, and proudly point to their 52,000 users as if they have a lock on the market. They may be surprised.

[LTS]

Here it comes!

Here comes your 19th nervous breakdown!

The ATX shell-shock comes from the CCH disregard for customer goodwill that had been acquired by two steps forward and one step back over many years.

I go back to 99 tax year with ATX. My recollection of the ATX story is that 3-4 years ago, the original ATX approached 60000 subscribers. They sold out to some entity (Kleinrock?). 2 years of various problems followed and subscribers declined. Last year Kleinrock? sold out to CCH, and last years subscribers totalled around 35000.

Then late in the filing season, CCH announced their new pricing structure, and pulled the Community Forum to avoid blog criticism - can you say stupid? A new alternative ATX forum was set up by one person (not a multi-million dollar company) for several hundred dollars. In many ways, it is better than the old forum.

When things have settled down, ATX MAX (the beef in 'Where's the beef?' of ATX products) is the same price and a value for what it delivers. It appears prices are up somewhat for the products above and below MAX, although still offering value.

I think ATX is viable for another year in its product mix. That is, if customers can overcome the stink of poor CCH marketing decisions. I think they will loose many more subscribers next year.

[DonPriebe]

Consolidation

... There are some 6-8 companies or thereabouts.

Intuit Pro Series (not counting TurboTax), OrrTax, TaxAct, LaCerte, TaxSlayer, Drake, TaxWise, TaxCut (if you want to count it), ATX, and maybe another 1-2 I haven't thought of at the moment.

You're double counting - both TaxWise and ATX were bought by CCH last season.

[Joe Btfsplk]

ATX viability

You are probably right--one more year, one more shoe to drop, then what?
ATX promised they would never drop the free version of what is now called zillion forms.
I tried the free version for corporate returns before I switched from ProSeries to ATX.

Then the free software was only available for a fee. This annoyed some, but did not affect most of us.

But now they are dropping the chat line and the message board without warning and the timing seemed to be geared to angering the maximum number of users.

Next the free efiling will probably go. Then the MAX program will probably drop corporate, partnership and fiduciary programs which they will market separately. Same for state programs.

They claim that only about 100 users contributed to the message board. What they may have overlooked is the ability of the thousands of lurkers to read the negative comments of ATX's formerly most enthusiastic users. Almost any tax pro, whether they contribute to message boards or not, will probably read them. It is one of the best ways to stay informed about potential problems and their solutions.

I plan to vote with my feet. I'll switch to Drake next year.

[George Boutwell]

They claim that only about 100 users contributed to the message board. What they may have overlooked is the ability of the thousands of lurkers to read the negative comments of ATX's formerly most enthusiastic users.

I haven't seen ATX make that claim. What I have seen other readers of the defunct message board claim, is that the counters showing total readership for each message seldom exceeded 70. The unofficial board shows about the same amount of traffic, although that may increase as identity thieves start showing up to check out users who have posted their date of birth for public consumption.

[jainen]

change the rules

>>an environment where anti-trust legislation cannot be counted on<<

What happened to the Intuit servers on April 17th is exactly one of the dangers of consolidation. Offices using ProSeries, Lacerte, Turbotax, and some companies we didn't even know piggybacked on the big guy were fundamentally crashed. So many people were affected that the IRS had to change the rules and accede to Intuit's public-be-****ed cost squeezing.

[RLymanC]

Intuit April 17th

Wonder how many of those last minute filers that plugged Intuit where getting refunds????

It seems that a large percentage of the public is totally unaware that they have 3 years to file for a refund.

[erchess]

What about

Ultratax?

For the moment let's set customer service and price aside even though both count as much as anything. Here is what I want

Little to no up front cost, and pay per return and per efile and the ability to work from tax forms instead of a spreadsheet. (These are the only traits I simply have to have.)

Ability to prepare literally every possible filing with the IRS, any State, and any Local income taxing agency.

Ability to electronically file any filing that is eligible.

Seldom or never have to do a hand worksheet or form and seldom or never have to manually carry a number from one place to another.

How much of this can I get and where can I best get it?

BTW I just bought Orrtax again but from a different vendor. They have most of what I want and the new vendor offered a better price. The company I am looking for and may or may not buy will be for a few very complex returns.

[Snaggletooth]

Ultra Tax

Sorry, when listing the products, I forgot all about UltraTax. I believe this is the tax software in the Creative Solutions package that works seamlessly with write-up work for CPAs and bookkeeping systems.

I've heard great things about it - wish I could afford it.

Snag

[Bees Knees]

When the big fish try to eat up all the little fish, some always get away.

It is my understanding that some tax pros wrote the original ATX, only to sell out after it became marketable to big business. Seems to me there is an opportunity for someone new to step up to the plate and take on the big guys.

Anyone out there have any programming skills?

[LawrenceGR]

Test Drive

I'm test driving Ultra Tax as we speak, so far I'd say it's a nice program, however, I'm not sure what the price will be. I have used Proseries the past few years and ATX for a few years before that. I gave up on ATX after a few things went screwey, I don't mind paying a little more for a good program, I don't think I'd like to pay $2000-$3000 because my practice is not that big but to me $500 vs $1000 is not that big a deal. I expect there will be many posts on the software debate and I look forward them

[DTS]

Programming skills

Bees,

Maybe, Brad or Paul will investigate this further and see if they can find someone??? Some feedback from the posters here may lend some insight on what the programmer would need to do?

Interesting.

Dennis

[George Boutwell]

It doesn't take much

Anyone out there have any programming skills?

I wrote my own software until I started with ATX, 7 or 8 years ago. My programming skills are self-taught, and others might laugh at my approach, but at least the software was designed for my specific needs, and it was available on January 1. I could go back to doing that for individual income tax returns, but I do enough out-of-state returns, corporation returns, and the occasional unavoidable partnership returns that it's easier to rely on someone else's product.

For an entrepreneur to come up with a new software package would be relatively easy, especially with the availability of cheap offshore skills. The problem is jumping through the hoops now required for IRS and state clearance. The government continues to increase its control over taxpayers by turning tax professionals into data entry clerks.

I have been fortunate, with ATX, that the state returns I need have been available before the end of January. I feel sorry for its users in states that were not available until mid-February -- although I don't expect to feel sorry for them next year, because I expect they will have switched.

[jrumbold]

TaxWorks

I have just finished my second year as a solo preparer after 7 years with HRBlock. I evaluated Lacerte and Proseries and I decided on TaxWorks because it was the lower cost option for Per Unit Processing fees. There are also several other EA's here in Orange County California using the product. I found problems with each product so I choose a lower price and smaller market penetration option thinking that they would try harder. I have been very pleased with the product and the tech support.

A few weeks ago they announced that they had been acquired by H&R Block as an "independent subsidiary." I think that is an oxymoron. One of those corporate wisdoms to try to fool the users. Anyway, now they have announced that efiling will be free for the 2007 tax season. It only remains to be seen when and what the next shoe to drop will be.

[Snaggletooth]

Strong Message

I am seeing a repeat message in most of the posts on this thread.

Instead of evaluating software for strengths and weaknesses, it appears most of us are simply fed up with increasing control of software by larger and larger organizations. Now it is TaxWorks which has fallen to the corporate monolith - this time H&R Block. I'm sure Block will be looking out for the interests of small, independent practitioners, right?

And the siren song is always the same. "We plan no changes to the product, and promise that you will continue to enjoy the same high satisfaction that you have become accustomed." This is never the case, and I don't know why they continue to think we are stupid enough to believe it.

Most of us work with independent thought, and offer our services to a clientele who prefer us not to be sheep. Maybe the time is right for us to get back to filling out forms and worksheets on our own expertise, and software that will allow us to do so instead of coaxing us with slick bells and whistles.

I wish all customers would bail out of software companies owned by corporations dedicated to putting us out of business, like HRBlock and Intuit. They want a nation of sheep.