Senate Immigration Bill

[Black Bart]

Tired of hearing

If the wages are to low where you live. Move! Good grief if we had the mentality today back in the 19th century there would have been no Oregon Trail.

me plead poverty in Arkansas, eh? Can't blame you for that (I'm kinda tired of living in it), but still, it's home and I like it enough that I'd rather not move -- just as you'd probably prefer not to pack up even if Portland passed the dreaded sales tax (8 1/4% here).

[Black Bart]

Couldn't you "unregistered"s establish

agreed sea-tax

some kind of informal ID system without revealing your vital whatevers? How about just ending the text of your posts with a "UR #1" or "UR #2"? Anything will do, so we'll know who is and is not on our respective sides.

[sea-tax]

some kind of informal ID system without revealing your vital whatevers? How about just ending the text of your posts with a "UR #1" or "UR #2"? Anything will do, so we'll know who is and is not on our respective sides.

Sorry BB That was me I just was eating lunch and to lazy to log in.

[Bjorn]

Hard work and accomplishment

Wow. Ring side seats for this debate.

A good rule of thumb:

[veritas]

DaveO, I don't know where you live, but it's not Middle Tennessee. We have some wealthy areas where you can't find help for $10.00/hr. but in most of our state there are plenty of people working minimum wage. And not just teenagers working in fast food joints.

If there weren't millions and millions of people working at no more than minimum wage, then why did the Republicans mobilize their congressional delegations to vote it down?

Do away with EIC if you must but raise minimum wage accordingly. If you want to keep minimum wage at $5.15 and do away with EIC, be prepared for the following:

1) Forget selling used cars at anything about 50% over what they are now bringing.
2) If you have rental property for $900/month, better cut that to $500.
3) If you are a doctor and collect only 70% of your billing, better drop that to 40%.
4) This list can go on and on. If you think just poor people suffer, better think again.

You folks seem to think that poor folks owe their existence to the benevolence of some rich slob who gives them a job. Stop long enough to figure out how the rich slob got to be rich to begin with.

Why does the federal governmentt have anything to do with wages, hours, overtime? Somebody please tell me. Why do we act like sheep and accept being dictated to? Secondly I do believe people owe something to those who employ them. I am an employer who wishes to purchase labor form individuals at thier fair market value. Just like when I buy a car, tv, clothing, you name it. I am a customer. If those I employ treat me well I come back again and again and will be loyal to them.

[Black Bart]

Gub'mint

Why does the federal governmentt have anything to do with wages, hours, overtime? Somebody please tell me. Why do we act like sheep and accept being dictated to?

Now see, that's exactly the same thing we once asked Abe Lincoln and he gave us a good thrashin' over it. After that we went along peaceably.

[veritas]

Now see, that's exactly the same thing we once asked Abe Lincoln and he gave us a good thrashin' over it. After that we went along peaceably.

Well if Thomas had not been killed by friendly fire maybe things would have been different.

"Look, men, there is Jackson standing like a stone wall! Let us determine to die here, and we will conquer!"

One of my favorite movies is Gods and Generals.

[S T]

Thought for the Day

Thought for the Day: "The only difference between a tax man and a taxidermist is that the taxidermist leaves the skin." Mark Twain


Looks like Calif Mimimum Wage will increase in Jan 2007 and last phase in Jan 2008 if passed through the Legislature. By 2008 we will be at $8.00 per hour. Of course employers are not "estatic" about this and already trying to figure out how to pay for, so ultimately will be passed on to all consumers. My gas/convenience client is already trying to calculate how many pennies to raise his prices on his gas and convenience store items. So a bottle of water that is now $.99 will be $1.09, a candy bar that is now $.79 will go to $.89, hot dog from $.99 to $1.19 etc.


S

[Scarecrow]

Why does the federal governmentt have anything to do with wages, hours, overtime? Somebody please tell me. Why do we act like sheep and accept being dictated to? Secondly I do believe people owe something to those who employ them. I am an employer who wishes to purchase labor form individuals at thier fair market value. Just like when I buy a car, tv, clothing, you name it. I am a customer. If those I employ treat me well I come back again and again and will be loyal to them.

You are a small business owner. In the context of small business, I agree 100%. If every business in this country were a small business, employees would probably have no need for government protection.


The real world is not always made up with small business owners who have pure motives. Big business prefers NOT to pay FMV for labor. When you buy a car, TV, clothing, etc. you like the idea of competition because it holds the price down. If you live in a small town, there is no competition, and you wind up paying much more for that car, TV, clothing etc. etc.

The cost of labor is also dependent on competition. When you live in an area where there is no competition for labor, that employer no longer needs to pay FMV. The cost of labor goes down. People have the freedom to move, but enough always stay behind and get sucked into a vacuum where there is no way out. Low wages reduce the ability of that employee to pick up and move.

Big business knows this, and loves to capitalize on it. They do their best to make sure there IS NO competition, either by getting together with their buddies to artificially deflate the cost of labor, or by driving their small business competitors out of business through their superior financial resources. Wall Mart will drive every small town hardware store out of business the minute they move into the area. Do you think Wall Mart is interested in paying FMV for labor? That small town hardware store owner would like to see his employee Billy Bob make a decent living because he knew Billy Bob when he was a wee lad. Wall Mart could care less whether Billy Bob makes his next rent payment. Wall Mart only cares about anonymous stock holders who don’t have a clue who Billy Bob is.

There was a time in this country when big business had no governmental restraints. The Union Movement, Socialism, and Governmental regulations that have since run amuck is a direct result of what happened when big business got its way. If people are as decent as you would like to believe they are, then why did big business in the 1800s introduce company stores, where you were paid with company coupons instead of cash? What was the reason for that? Why could you only live in company housing? Why did big business try to act like dictators?

The reason is there was no government regulation to prevent them from doing so. Small business competitors could not stop them. Only Labor Unions and Government regulations stopped big business from turning the nation into a 1984 scenario. You think human nature has changed any since?

[veritas]

You are a small business owner. In the context of small business, I agree 100%. If every business in this country were a small business, employees would probably have no need for government protection.


The real world is not always made up with small business owners who have pure motives. Big business prefers NOT to pay FMV for labor. When you buy a car, TV, clothing, etc. you like the idea of competition because it holds the price down. If you live in a small town, there is no competition, and you wind up paying much more for that car, TV, clothing etc. etc.

The cost of labor is also dependent on competition. When you live in an area where there is no competition for labor, that employer no longer needs to pay FMV. The cost of labor goes down. People have the freedom to move, but enough always stay behind and get sucked into a vacuum where there is no way out. Low wages reduce the ability of that employee to pick up and move.

Big business knows this, and loves to capitalize on it. They do their best to make sure there IS NO competition, either by getting together with their buddies to artificially deflate the cost of labor, or by driving their small business competitors out of business through their superior financial resources. Wall Mart will drive every small town hardware store out of business the minute they move into the area. Do you think Wall Mart is interested in paying FMV for labor? That small town hardware store owner would like to see his employee Billy Bob make a decent living because he knew Billy Bob when he was a wee lad. Wall Mart could care less whether Billy Bob makes his next rent payment. Wall Mart only cares about anonymous stock holders who don’t have a clue who Billy Bob is.

There was a time in this country when big business had no governmental restraints. The Union Movement, Socialism, and Governmental regulations that have since run amuck is a direct result of what happened when big business got its way. If people are as decent as you would like to believe they are, then why did big business in the 1800s introduce company stores, where you were paid with company coupons instead of cash? What was the reason for that? Why could you only live in company housing? Why did big business try to act like dictators?

The reason is there was no government regulation to prevent them from doing so. Small business competitors could not stop them. Only Labor Unions and Government regulations stopped big business from turning the nation into a 1984 scenario. You think human nature has changed any since?

So you are ok with the federal goverment telling you what rate of pay, overtime, and so on.? Every state has a bureau of labor dept, so we need the federal goverment too? I understand big business ran amok at one time. People formed unions and fought back. Now Big Unions are a problem.

I'm unsure of the numbers but I suspect the great majority of employees work for small companies. So your reasoning is since some big companies might misbehave we need Big Goverment to protect us. When are people going to realize Big Government is only good at making more Big Government. On second thought they are pretty good at making Big Government Unions.

Tell me please what federal goverment agency you think is efficient and spends it's time and money wisely?

As far as the nature of people well I guess I am one and nothing people do surprises me.

[jainen]

the teenager

>>a candy bar that is now $.79 will go to $.89<<

What a RIDICULOUS argument! At least cite some numbers that could be twisted into something close to reality, please.

If a 19% raise in minimum wage creates a 13% price increase, you are saying that the storekeeper's investment in his cheapest employees represents more than two thirds of that candy bar's value, with hardly two bits to cover his rent and wholesale cost of goods, not to mention his own profits!

Inflation's running better than 4%, which just happens to equal the same price increase over the same time. But why blame the corporation that makes the candy bar when you can blame the teenager who sells it?

[S T]

No Argument

Jainen, did you forget to take your "nice" pill this morning.

I am sure no employer is blaming the "employee" for making a higher minimum wage, and most are in agreement that the existing mimimum wage whether it be Federal level or State level is low. Employers/Business Owners just have no alternative but to increase their prices so that they can try to keep up with inflation across the board. No argument, just an observation and part of a conversation I had with a Convenience/Gas store operator. I only used examples which might not be factual in percentage increases.

Won't you be increasing your prices, due the cost of gas, the cost of your supplies, the increase you pay for your tax software, increase in postage, etc?

Convenience stores and other retailers that deal on volume, take a look at all products they sell. Some have higher profit margins than others. Some of their volume products they will move the price only pennies, not necessarily in relationship to percentage of increase on mimimum wage you are citing. Less volume sale items might have a higher percentage increase maybe 25% or 30%, while more volume sale items will have a lower percentage increase. They are only trying to achieve to absorb their extra costs in "overall" sales for the month.

A Gas station will move the price per gallon on the highest volume of gallon sales such as Regular Grade only by maybe a $.01 (volume 150,000 gallons) so they won't loose the sale to the competition across the street or possibly undercut by $.01 , but may move the High Grade by $.03 or $.04, (50,000 gallons) and their sales volume is less.

Much like the grocery stores, and the extra transportation costs that have been passed on to them, some of the items have only increased pennies, while some items might have increased 25 - 50 cents per item. When an item is being sold for less than their cost on "special" for the week, they are counting on the consumer buying at least another item or two that has been increased at a much higher % rate.

The idea for these types of retailers, is to attract the customer, because almost always they will buy another product that the retailer has for sale.

Sandy

[jainen]

ringing up this hour

>>Jainen, did you forget to take your "nice" pill this morning.<<

Sorry, it's just that I haven't posted for a day or two. My guru was harping about the addiction of too much time on the Internet--said it was unhealthy or unproductive or some such. So I was behaving myself pretty good until Black Bart made that crack about uber-liberals, and I remembered my solemn obligations to the community.

Here's my point. It's real easy to blame our economic woes on the hired help. Obviously they don't have much of a work ethic or they would get off their duffs and make some real dough.

What's wrong is that it distracts from the genuine problems. A convenience store clerk doesn't actually contribute ANYTHING to the value of the inventory. In fact, it's kind of the definition of a business that the sales force generates more income than expenses. So if you're worrying about paying an extra dollar an hour to the guy in the security camera feed, you might miss the extra hundred dollars you have to pay blind for the products he's ringing up this hour.

[S T]

Okay you are forgiven

Wondered where you had been this last week!

As I stated, I only made an observation, and not trying to blame the cost of hiring employees. Costs at any point are passed on. End result is the taxpayer/consumer. It is this circular cycle that continues. Point well taken on the "help" they don't contribute to the value of inventory, and yes in THIS industry of retail that we are discussing the inventory" going out the back door" is high, checkpoints in place, security, etc still can't seem to stop it. And yes, some of these "minimum wage earners" should put forth more effort to better their financial/employment status , but give some credit to the few percentage that might and just can't seem to get there, so we do have to be somewhat tolerant.

But "employees" are needed in this industry and they should receive a "decent" wage, but I think the issue I was trying to make is the "trickle down" effect. So with the new minimum wage to take effect in Calif in 1/07, consumers will pay a higher price at the retail level for sure, which will be the grocery store, the convenience store, the dept store, the donut shop, etc. The higher prices that consumer's pay for their taxable products, the State will also generate higher sales tax revenue, (sales tax revenues increased greatly with the higher gas price), but the actual Business Owner probably won't see much in the way of additional profits.

Business owner's sometimes seem to get caught in the middle and are blamed. Example being the "Gas" Dealer/Franchise. Gas Prices have increased, the Mfg/Distributor is reaping the profits, raising the cost to the Dealer/Franchisee, the Dealer/Franchisee has raised his price to the consumer, but in reality the actual gross profit margin, cents per gallon might not have been increased in the end. Dealer/Franchisee is still making the $.04 -$.07 per gallon maybe.

Won't the higher minimum wage possibly also increase the EIC refunds? And if so yes that will also maybe allow that recipient to spend more money back into the economy.

Then it has also been expressed, that because the minimum hourly wage is to be raised, that other employees employed at a higher rate than the minimum wage will seem to also expect a "raise".

The cycle continues,

Sandy

[jainen]

not my point

>>Point well taken on the "help" they don't contribute to the value of inventory, and yes in THIS industry of retail that we are discussing the inventory" going out the back door" is high, checkpoints in place, security, etc still can't seem to stop it.<<

That's not my point at all. I mentioned security cameras because the owners are watching the wrong thing. Maybe there's some five-fingered discount, but the store owner is being ripped off big-time by some private corporations--one of them is called the Federal Reserve Bank.

>>with the new minimum wage to take effect in Calif in 1/07, consumers will pay a higher price at the retail level for sure<<

That's not my point either. The raise is 75 cents--only 3% annual since 2002, which is somewhat below the inflation rate. I'm trying to make the point that wages are but a small factor in total business expense. If you deny that, you are faced with the arithmetic truth that the minimum wage is HOLDING DOWN price increases.