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[ChEAr$]

Who is a child?

A child is a minor as defined by state law, and remains so until he reaches the age of emancipation as defined by state law.
It might be 18 in some states, 19 in others.

[FEDUKE404]

Still think thin ice exists

This one says "child" without definition and in the final part "minor child". I still do not believe alone disqualifies the parent from signing for a dependent child away at college.
Do we send some to college to be signed?, sure...but at times it is not practical.
Now what all would construe "cannot sign the return"? A child at school can not sign the return at that time so a parent should be allowed to. The IRS does give us permission to have a parent sign that return.

Over the years I've had plenty of quite young children (including my own) sign their name to a tax return. It's always been my understanding that a parent/guardian would sign when the child was too young or perhaps disabled (physically/mentally) to sign a name.

I would personally have a very hard time justifying a dependent in college is a minor and/or "cannot" sign the tax return. To encourage such apparently just to speed things along sounds like a trip down a path which I would not personally care to take.

(As a somewhat poor analogy, although my college age children are still on my insurance policy, I am prohibited from any/all discussions over their medical services, claims, etc. unless they authorize me to know such. And I also am blocked from any discussion about college grades, courses, etc unless the student gives the school written permission for me to know that information.)

And out of curiosity, what might you do when spouse #2 "cannot" sign a joint return, using your apparent definition of that term??

FE

[travis bickle]

I must be missing SOMETHING, so

Can mom sign for dependent son who is away at college?

please enlighten me.

WHY is mom trying to sign for someone else's return? If the son is her dependent, she puts him on her 1040 AND he files his own return where he is living, checking the box that says someone else claimed him.

So, again, why is mom trying to file someone else's return?

Incidentally, the only thing I found at the IRS website [a SOMETIMES reliable source for IRS information] is the following from Pub 17:

Responsibility of parent. Generally, a child is responsible for filing his or her own tax return and for paying any tax on the return. But if a dependent child who must file an income tax return cannot file it for any reason, such as age, then a parent, guardian, or other legally responsible person must file it for the child. If the child cannot sign the return, the parent or guardian must sign the child's name followed by the words “By (your signature), parent for MINOR child. . . . . (my emphasis)

[AJsTax]

And out of curiosity, what might you do when spouse #2 "cannot" sign a joint return, using your apparent definition of that term??

FE

There are very specific procedures to follow when a spouse is unable to sign. We usually get out the pub or 1040 instructions to read to a client when that happens.

I am sure there is much to learn and to adjust to in the 10 billion pages of tax code. I will never do it 100% correct, neither will anyone else. That is impossible. We just do what we feel is correct and least likely to cross paths with the IRS.

I have had some very loud and heated discussions in the past year over school and medical records for my dependent son at college. Who ever came up with those totally asinine rules have no clue how the world really works. As long as I am paying for everything I have the right to know everything. Period! end of discussion for me.
Thanks for you input, I do learn from dissention more than agreement some times.

[Gary2]

A child is a minor as defined by state law, and remains so until he reaches the age of emancipation as defined by state law.
It might be 18 in some states, 19 in others.

Just a reminder: The age of majority and the age of emancipation are two distinct concepts. In many states, they're the same, but not all.

[taxxcpa]

Unable to sign

If someone is blind, they might still be able to sign, but would have difficulty in getting the signature in the right place. Would the spouse or someone else be allowed to sign and what explanation would be used--it would have to be brief, so "My husband is blind and cannot sign the return so I'm signing his name for him" would be too lengthy

[ChEAr$]

If someone is blind, they might still be able to sign, but would have difficulty in getting the signature in the right place. Would the spouse or someone else be allowed to sign and what explanation would be used--it would have to be brief, so "My husband is blind and cannot sign the return so I'm signing his name for him" would be too lengthy

And that's why my one blind client always signs the 8879. His wife helps guide his hand of course.

[Roberts]

please enlighten me.

WHY is mom trying to sign for someone else's return? If the son is her dependent, she puts him on her 1040 AND he files his own return where he is living, checking the box that says someone else claimed him.

I'm guessing you haven't worked in the industry very long if you think parents aren't routinely helping their children file their taxes.

I've got a lady who comes in and brings me her son's tax forms every year - I've never done her taxes. He comes in and signs the forms or he mails them back to me.

[taxea]

IF THEY QUALIFY AS DEPENDENT

What you allow and what is correct may not be the same thing. Would you allow the wife to sign for the husband on a MFJ return? Maybe years ago this would have been acceptable but since the advent of overnight mail, email, fax etc I don't think it would fly now. The court wants the original document as evidence when it can be gotten, not a copy of the document because that was more readily available....your practice wouldn't fly in court so it shouldn't be used just because it is more convenient.

The only place I know that the parent can sign for a "dependent" is a hospital and that applies only for a minor or disabled, not an adult in college who the IRS is allowing the parent to continue to declare on their return.

[travis bickle]

Just an FYI

I'm guessing you haven't worked in the industry very long if you think parents aren't routinely helping their children file their taxes.

I've got a lady who comes in and brings me her son's tax forms every year - I've never done her taxes. He comes in and signs the forms or he mails them back to me.

I have been doing individual returns for 14 years. I have never had the OP's situation. I have had plenty of times where the parents and child(ren) returns were all done at the same time, but never this.

And, as an aside, I am not too sure about a society where a college student is incapable of preparing his/her own tax return.

[AJsTax]

I have been doing individual returns for 14 years. I have never had the OP's situation. I have had plenty of times where the parents and child(ren) returns were all done at the same time, but never this.

And, as an aside, I am not too sure about a society where a college student is incapable of preparing his/her own tax return.

In my expewrience, 99% of the college studentst that do prepare their own return "because they know how by then" do it incorrectly and we end up going back and having to mail the parent's and amend the students. This happens so many times we advise all our parents with college kids to advise them against preparing their own. We hundreds of these types of returns every year.

[RitaB]

These Whipper Snappers

Yep, evidentually, some of these whipper snappers ain't all that smart. Yesterday, a college freshman came BACK in to get directions as to how to make out the check to IRS to include with his 1040-V. The cover letter explaining that was right there.

I just filled out the check for him cause it was quicker than spelling "United States Treasury" and waiting for him to locate an actual ink pen. Plus I'm sure he would have said, "But I thought I had to pay IRS."

Hope the little fella signed the check and put a dang stamp on the envelope. He may still be trying to fit it into the disk drive on his laptop.

[travis bickle]

Dear Rita (and also a nod to AJ)

Yep, evidentually, some of these whipper snappers ain't all that smart. Yesterday, a college freshman came BACK in to get directions as to how to make out the check to IRS to include with his 1040-V. The cover letter explaining that was right there.

I just filled out the check for him cause it was quicker than spelling "United States Treasury" and waiting for him to locate an actual ink pen. Plus I'm sure he would have said, "But I thought I had to pay IRS."

Hope the little fella signed the check and put a dang stamp on the envelope. He may still be trying to fit it into the disk drive on his laptop.

you prove my point ... supposed to be able to go to college, but cannot do an EZ (I realize I am oversimplifying... some kiddos will have 1040A's and some will have 1040's) ... but they are still unable to complete the document ... sigh... the flower of American youth.

[dtlee]

Just a reminder: The age of majority and the age of emancipation are two distinct concepts. In many states, they're the same, but not all.

Just to continue this a bit, I was given the impression that children below the age of majority cannot sign a contract and thus, once they reach majority age can change the way to report savings bond interest (if for example, the parents were reporting it annually rather than at maturity until then...I have an EA friend who did that with his daughter).

Thus, I am wondering if the "cannot" in the instructions means that they are not legally able to sign the return as opposed to being not physically able. The phrase the signer seems to have to use includes the words "parent for minor child."

Gary,

I am wondering if you have a reference to the difference between emancipation and majority and if you believe that financial emancipation is what the IRS Qualifying Child regulations is talking about or if it is something else when they discuss a child reaching the age of emancipation in a given state. Massachusetts for example defines emancipation as being either financial or decision making and a person may have one and not the other. I am not sure which of these would be used to determine if a parent actually has "custody" of a child. It seems that custody is more related to making decisions than having financial obligations, but I admit it has me baffled.

Also, does anyone have a link to the ages of majority/emancipation by state. This is somewhat critical for the dependency rules for divorced and separated parents.

Thanks.

[Gary2]

Here's a link that discusses the difference between majority and emancipation in MA: http://www.clcm.org/minors_rights.htm . Item number 3 is the one that points out that reaching the age of majority doesn't imply emancipation, along with some court citations.

Here's a link that has a summary of state law citations, though in following some of them, they're not always reliable: http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/table_emancipation

Finally, here's a link that has a summary of "age of emancipation for child support": http://www.divorcesource.com/tables/...cipation.shtml . I don't know how reliable the information is, but my intuition says that the emancipation for child support purposes is the concept that the IRS should be using for the more relevant discussion of the divorced parent dependency rules.