mandatory efiling

[JohnH]

I agree with 90% of your points, but maybe you miss the point. It isn't about efficiency or ease of use for most of us who are still efusing to efile.

Personally I recognize the adminstrative & clerical benefits - I just don't care to shoulder the responsibility for actually filing the return. That's the client's responsibility, not mine. And I have never cared to accept that responsibility any more than I care to write their check for them when they owe money (unless they are elderly, blind, or illiterate). There are lots of things we can do to provide service for our clients, but in most cases performing any task for someone carries with it an acceptance of a certain amount of extra responsibility and associated risk.

I've always preferred to do my job, which is to PREPARE the return, and then mail it to the client and let them to their job, which is to FILE the return.

I also happen to believe that e-filing has been from the start the enabling mechanism to continue bringing tax preparers into the fold to function as an extension of the IRS rather than an advocate for our clients. But I realize that comment puts me in the "black helicopters" crowd. Besides, that train has already left the station & is relentlessly chugging down the track.

[oceanlovin'ea]

Ok, John, I do see your point. Neither do I want the responsibility or be considered part of the IRS.

I guess I feel it is a service I can offer to my clients to make their life easier.

But I see your point.

Linda

[lenboush]

I agree with 90% of your points, but maybe you miss the point. It isn't about efficiency or ease of use for most of us who are still efusing to efile.

Personally I recognize the adminstrative & clerical benefits - I just don't care to shoulder the responsibility for actually filing the return. That's the client's responsibility, not mine. And I have never cared to accept that responsibility any more than I care to write their check for them when they owe money (unless they are elderly, blind, or illiterate). There are lots of things we can do to provide service for our clients, but in most cases performing any task for someone carries with it an acceptance of a certain amount of extra responsibility and associated risk.

I've always preferred to do my job, which is to PREPARE the return, and then mail it to the client and let them to their job, which is to FILE the return.

I also happen to believe that e-filing has been from the start the enabling mechanism to continue bringing tax preparers into the fold to function as an extension of the IRS rather than an advocate for our clients. But I realize that comment puts me in the "black helicopters" crowd. Besides, that train has already left the station & is relentlessly chugging down the track.

I'd like to get further understanding of your two points. I honestly am not questioning your points. I just do not understand them.

Your first point relates to not wishing to take on the responsibility for "filing" the return. Could you further elaborate on why that is a problem to you? Agian, I am not trying to question you here, only trying to figure out why that is a problem.

You second point relates to e-filing being the mechanism for bringing you "into the fold to function as an extension of the IRS rather than an advocate for our clients." Again, I would appreciate any understanding you could provide as to why that is an issue. If you said that the new licensing program or even the EA program was going to casue that, I could possibly see your point. But I would appreciate it if you could explain your thoughts on how e-filing will do that.

Again, these requests are not meant critically, but are meant to help me to understand something that I may be missing.

I appreciate the feedback!

[erchess]

agree and disagree

I have to say that I completely agree with those who note that the taxing agencies are trying to make tax professionals part of the enforcement process and lessen our advocacy for our clients. And yes I'm troubled both by this effort and by what I perceive to be too much acceptance of it by our professional organizations. However, I don't see how Electronic Filing is part of that process.

As to the liability issue, I don't really see that point either. Last year I took a fee from a long time client for filing an extension electronically and somehow I did not get the job done. (I now have a work in progress spreadsheet to help me keep track of such. I don't see the moral as "I took on too much responsibility" but as "I failed to meet a responsibility I could and should have met".) And yeah I paid her late fling penalty because I thought it was the right thing to do. However, suppose that I had printed a paper and mailed it to her only she for some reason failed to get it? Wouldn't I have been just as liable?

[JohnH]

Len:I don't see your comments as be critical, so no problem. And I'll add that I realize I may be utterly & completely wrong on everything I say about efiling and our industry in the long run.

I just view the preparation of the return and the filing of the return as being two separate & distinct tasks. I think the client should accept full responsibility for the filing task - I don't want any part of it. I like to print the return, mail it to the client with an invoice, and forget about it. I have very few problems with paper filed returns because most of my clients are long-term clients, so I'm not impressed with the error trapping argument. Keep in mind that my attitude would be compeltely different if I were preparing returns for people walking in off the street.

Also, I realize there's no direct connection between efiling and making us an extension of the IRS; it was simply the first major step in that direction. I actually expected the latest developments to happen several years ago because it was clear that efiling would be the means to expedite the process of gaining moer control over tax preparers - you might call it the platform. (I'll stay out of the politics on this, but they are a factor affecting why we are where we are at present). Expect the process to become ever more intrusive and your associated career risks to accelerate in the future as the regulatory noose tightens - not around the client but around us.

And although it may have been inevitable anyhow, many in the tax preparation industry share some responsibility for having been much too eager to embrace efiling on a wholesale basis, mainly because it's "easier", as this process unfolded right before us. Making it easier works in both directions, big time.

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Erchess: If you had mailed the extension to her, then you fulfilled your responsibility. If she didn't receive it, then it was her responsibility to let you know, and in time for you to do something about it. I think your question actually illustrates my point.

[Black Bart]

Mailing versus efile

...Your first point relates to not wishing to take on the responsibility for "filing" the return. Could you further elaborate on why that is a problem to you?...

...I just view the preparation of the return and the filing of the return as being two separate & distinct tasks. I think the client should accept full responsibility for the filing task - I don't want any part of it. I like to print the return, mail it to the client with an invoice, and forget about it...

I also prefer that clients mail their own returns. If they do, then you're protected against late filing fees (or worse) like MAJ was from his 1065-guy (below):

...I had a client (1065 Partnership) get all in my face... (I don't E-File Business Returns...) after they got a letter from the State..said the paperwork was never filed...suspended the corporation...this guy...saying he was going to call the State on me...Please have a seat...let's review...We Electronically filed your personal returns and I handed YOU three copies of your Partnership return...You told me...you were dropping the return off at the post office...correct? Yes. Did you!? Yes. Well then I don't understand. The moment I handed those copies & mailable copy to you my responsibilities were done. How does this fall back on me...Had that return been electronically filed & it didn't go - yea.. but you? Sorry Charlie...

...I view the rejects as an opportunity to serve my clients, since most of the problems identified by the rejection are problems that would either slow down their refund or are problems that would generate a letter from the IRS that I would have to be dealt with later anyway.

Well, those "opportunities" are okay (they don't pay much) as long as their interests don't conflict with my interests (self-protection/see MAJ's post again) while I'm doing them a favor. I'm a bit soured on social work since I haven't found that many clients willing to take responsibility for their own failings nor found gratitude to have a long life (everybody to their own opinion and you may have lots of good experiences -- I'm just relating mine).

That aside, the paper rejects allows me to "make points" with clients. They get a letter, bring it in, we talk/socialize/kick it around (may play it down a bit if it's my fault). I say I'll write a letter back and take care of it -- they're impressed/appreciative/feel they're in good hands. Contrast that with a software flagged EF reject; I check it out -- frequently don't need to contact the client at all. Upshot is they don't even know there was a problem or that I've helped them/solved it.

So...a dying horse paper may be, but I feel it still offers the best ride.

[dyne]

The only problem I have found with e-filing is that BOTH husband and wife must sign the form 8879. In most cases only ONE of the spouses comes to me each year so I must have the other spouse come in to sign the form or the form must be taken home to be signed. Filing a power of attorney is more trouble than it is worth. I wish there was a solution to this problem.

[Uncle Sam]

Mandatory e-filing

In all the 5 or 6 years I've been doing e-filing (much to my STILL dissatisfaction with it) I haven't had ONE problem with joint signatures. The worst that happens is one spouse takes the return home, has the other spouse sign it - and it's sent back in the mail - OR - first faxed, then followed up with the original.

That's no problem at all.

[joanmcq]

Same here. I usually get it back within a few hours. No bigger a pain than having it faxed in by my out-of-town clients.

[Black Bart]

Well, see,

In all the 5 or 6 years I've been doing e-filing (much to my STILL dissatisfaction with it) I haven't had ONE problem with joint signatures. The worst that happens is one spouse takes the return home, has the other spouse sign it - and it's sent back in the mail - OR - first faxed, then followed up with the original.

That's no problem at all.

the way I look at it, IT IS a problem (while this discussion is moot since we will be required to do it, there's no harm in kicking it around a little).

The new responsibility is a chore and the duty to get the return to IRS is now transferred from the client to us. Granted that getting the signatures is usually not much trouble, but about a third of my clients arrive alone and pick up the 8879 to take to the other spouse. Now I have to keep track of who did that, when they may be overdue to return, or take the time to receive and process their faxed/mailed form. All this entails time and trouble, not a great deal but some, whereas before I simply handed the return to the client and gave it no further thought. If they mailed it, fine; if not, still fine (their problem). If they later got letters for not mailing it, then that was new summer business for me.

Anyway, the point is we're now having to do and be responsible for something (minor though it may seem/be) for which clients formerly were and, generally speaking, there's no additional fee for that. It wouldn't be much if there were, but all these little straws may eventually break the camel's back.

[RitaB]

Insightful group we have here

This is a great discussion. I do e-file if the client wants the service, and I (did) charge $20 for it. Yeah, it's easier on me in many ways, but I completely understand and commiserate with the reluctance (more like resentment for me personally) to do EVERYTHING (weary font) for these schmucks. I mean, this is part of the problem with my clients. I bet very few of my clients who e-file even look over their return.

OK, I know, very few of the paper filers even look at their returns, either. Come on people, learn a couple of things about your own taxes, you slackers.

[taxxcpa]

E-filing

Some people will get the Form 8879 and a copy of the return, then mail the whole thing to the IRS.

When it becomes mandatory, I think I will watermark the client's copy "DO NOT SEND TO IRS"--then, if they do send it, I can weasel out of e-filing that return.

[FEDUKE404]

NO efile might be a problem?

I saw on another forum that and IRS representative stated there would be a waiver available for clients who prefer not to e-file. I hope he heard that correctly. None of my clients are interested in e-filing.

Interesting - ALL of my clients have used efile for years, except for one poor soul that cannot because "someone" keeps claiming one of his dependents each year. (It's outright fraud - not a former spouse or anything issue - IRS knows about it and......apparently just ignores it for something like six years running!)

FE

[Black Bart]

Hooray! An ally!

"Insightful group we have here..."

Now, by jingoes, that's as nice a euphemism as has ever been applied to an old fossilized conservative like me. Atta girl, Rita! Come on in here -- we low-tech, petrified paper filers need all the backup we can get to fight off these high-powered, electrified efilers.

Next thing, they'll be wantin' us to give up carbon paper.

[JohnH]

Interesting - ALL of my clients have used efile for years, except for one poor soul that cannot because "someone" keeps claiming one of his dependents each year. (It's outright fraud - not a former spouse or anything issue - IRS knows about it and......apparently just ignores it for something like six years running!)

FE

I continue to insist that none of my clients want to efile because up until now if they insist on efiling they're no longer my clients. Guess that policy will have to change in the next year or two.