Attention E.A.s

[JCH]

Black Bart wrote: "What about Sam's "legal reasons," L T?

Bart - IMO, Sam is a little off-target. The roots of the enrolled agent designation trace back to the Enabling Act of 1884. The legislation allowed the Treasury to recognize attorneys and agents. There were various regulatory actions with C230 eventually evolving. There were revisions etc. and (from what I've been told and I believe it to be reliable) the 1966 revision of C230 first use the phrase "enrolled agent" to universally describe those who were admitted to practice before the IRS. The formation of NAEA in 1972 runs concurrent with the appointment of the late Les Shapiro as Director of Practice. Les was a strong advocate for EAs. The phrase "enrolled agent" is a creation of Treasury. There is legislation in Congress right now to formalize enrolled agent into the IRC.

EVERYONE has an opinion about the "correct" designation for enrolled agents. I would suggest those who are EAs work to promote themselves as tax experts. NAEA continues to make progress in this area - probably the most recent public recognition was the 8 enrolled agents who appeared on the NBC Today show as "the" tax experts who answered over 700 tax questions from viewers. But without any doubt, the most successful way to promote the EA designation is by telling your clients how great you are as a tax professional!!! I respect Roland's opinion and he is correct to some degree. But, IMO, the answer is not to change the name - the answer is to self-promote. Make your clients aware of who you are.

Personally, I view CPAs as professional colleagues. They have certain skill sets I don't have. But, then I have certain tax skills that some of them do not have (nor desire to have). I don't understand the attempt by some to knock others when it's so much easier to build myself up.

I'd have to disagree about the "Self-Promote" idea. I get pretty tired having to explain what an Enrolled Agent is to the general public. It's a confusing, archaic title at best. Maybe since the title was invented around the Civil War it's time to update it to something more contemporary and meaningful.

[thomtax]

What would PA have stood for? As far as I know neither man was running a side business as an Accountant.

I dunno, I didn't go to him. Perhaps "Professional Association"

There are several definitions for many of the "initials". One I can think of is CMA
Certified Medical Assistant; Certified Management Accountant and I think I have read another one somewhere.

[outwest]

In Idaho, PA stands for..

Professional Association, It's one of the legal options to name a professional corporation.

BTW, the we still have a very few Licensed public accountants; the grandfathered version of a CPA.

[erchess]

Ty Snags

Erchess, "PA" stood for "Public Accountant" and almost every state has them, or at least they did. .

I thought PA stood for Public Accountant but I still don't understand why Ophthalmologists (Eye Surgeons) would have had this designation. They had thriving practices as eye surgeons and the only books their staff kept were those of the practice and in at least one case of the doctor. (I asked at age 12. His Book Keeper paid the bills including her own and other staff salaries, paid him the money on which hie and his family lived day to day, kept some in the business name in case of future cash flow problems, and sent the rest to the Doctor's stock broker. She also balanced his checkbook for him and paid out of that account many of his personal bills.. I asked her if she was his mother and she laughed and told me to go back to my seat in the waiting room.)

[Snaggletooth]

PAs

What would PA have stood for?

Erchess, "PA" stood for "Public Accountant" and almost every state has them, or at least they did. Many of them were extra sharp bookkeeping, payroll, and tax people, most of whom were missing some of the CPA qualifications. For example, some of the better PAs did not have a college degree, and 40-50 years ago, a degree was not absolutely necessary for anything as long as someone could do the work. In rural cultures a degree was actually disdained by many, as there was a Charlie Daniels' mentality ("A Rich man goes to college, a Pore man goes to work"). In those days, a PA could often make a decent living with a corner bookkeeping shop.

Public Accountants were governed by the same State Boards of Accountancy that govern CPAs. My most prodigious observations with these State Boards were 1)issuing state licenses to CPAs and PAs - functionally a cash register for the state 2)administering and proctoring the AICPA exam in their state and 3)issuing "internship" requirements for future CPAs so the existing CPAs could employ an unending flow of sharp young minds and pay them little more than minimum wage.

There are not many Public Accountants anymore. One of the earlier posts said that his state doesn't license new ones but has grandfathered existing PAs. Some PAs eventually became eligible to be CPAs, some good ones actually sold their practices to CPAs and went to work for them, scores of them literally evaporated with the advent of electronic bookkeeping and payroll, such as Excel and QuikBooks.

They're like the other categories we've discussed - good ones and bad ones.

[erchess]

Pa

As you know, Arkansas used to have a PA, that is now gone except for old time license holders. Colorado did have a Public Accountant classification. I haven't looked in the last year or so and don't know if this has changed. LT[/QUOTE]

LT when I was a child I was seen by two different ophthalmologists both of whom were older men and both of whom were in NC with "John Doe MD PA"on one line on their doors and "Ophthalmology" below that. What would PA have stood for? As far as I know neither man was running a side business as an Accountant.

[dtlee]

Is there some pervading sense of scorn among EAs for CPAs? I've seen it here and on other forums to the point where I feel almost apologetic for having that license. I think this does the EA professionals more harm than good.

Wow, do you and I have a different set of experiences. I have a great deal of respect for CPAs, but find that they generally have no regard for Enrolled Agents. A group of them near here reluctantly hired an EA friend of mine and found out eventually how little they know, but it took years. Another EA friend of mine does nearly all the returns in the office she works in. The CPAs keep the lion's share of the fees and pay her a small salary.

Two tax software companies who had errors in their software apparently have CPAs on their payroll who told me through their phone representatives, that they should tell the EA that a CPA says it is correct. One CPA had the nerve to have me told to read the instructions on the form if I didn't believe them. Of course, the CPA himself was above reading those same instructions which would have shown him to be incorrect.

In our local EA group, they have been suggesting that once testing is required of all tax preparers, the value of an EA will go up. One even naively suggested that they should be called Enrolled Tax Preparers (not understanding that this is one of the designations once used by EAs). Whatever they call those (Certified Prepararers? Licensed Preparers? Authorized Prepararer?) it will definitely like they are more qualified than an Enrolled Agent does to the general public.

I can hear HRB professing that all of their preparers are Licensed Preparers. People won't want to bring their return to someone who is just an Enrolled Agent.

[thomtax]

[QUOTE=Uncle Sam;61024]

I think often it depends on how powerful the CPA organization is in the state.

The state rules governing what EAs (and CPAs for that matter) are determined not by the CPA societies, but by the State Boards of Accountancy. Yes, the CPA societies have a lot of influence on what the Boards eventually approve or disapprove, and I agree that depending upon each State Board, there are members on there representing the big CPA firms. However, it's the policy setting of the State Boards of Accountancy that control what the practice of accountancy in that state is.

Thanks for your comments.

In our state things are governed by laws passed by the legislature and administered by the board. The board makes proposals to the legislature, which are normally "rubber stamped". And the board consists of 7 members. 5 of these are CPAs and the executive director is a CPA, if that gives you an idea of the influence here. One of the bureaucrats there got real "high and mighty" treating some of the local EAs, including myself, in a real hateful manner. If you contacted him to clarify whether something was allowed by regulation in the state, he would treat you without any courtesy, tact or manners if you were not a CPA.

This happened to be a budget year and fortunately I served on the school board when our local representative was the school superintendent. After he had a polite discussion with the executive director, I received a letter from the bureaucrat telling me to please contact him in the future and not the representative, if I had any problems.

LT

[Uncle Sam]

[QUOTE=thomtax;61023] I think often it depends on how powerful the CPA organization is in the state.

The state rules governing what EAs (and CPAs for that matter) are determined not by the CPA societies, but by the State Boards of Accountancy. Yes, the CPA societies have a lot of influence on what the Boards eventually approve or disapprove, and I agree that depending upon each State Board, there are members on there representing the big CPA firms. However, it's the policy setting of the State Boards of Accountancy that control what the practice of accountancy in that state is.

[thomtax]

Do you know for sure if NAEA has concluded that a name change is impossible?

As far as being cost effective, we've got nowhere to go but up -- efforts to date have had almost zero effect.

I don't know the answer to your question. What I do know is that in some states you are not even allowed to advertise that your are an EA. I would have to check to be sure of the state, but I recently read that (I think it was Virginia) has introduced a bill to allow persons to advertise the EA credential. This varies by state and I think often it depends on how powerful the CPA organization is in the state.

As you know, Arkansas used to have a PA, that is now gone except for old time license holders. Colorado did have a Public Accountant classification. I haven't looked in the last year or so and don't know if this has changed.

I'm with you, would like to go up.

LT

[Black Bart]

N Y E A

...I would suggest those who are EAs work to promote themselves as tax experts...the most successful way to promote the EA designation is by telling your clients how great you are as a tax professional...the answer is not to change the name - the answer is to self-promote...

Thanks for the comments on "legal reasons," but the self-promotion routine, again, takes us right back to forcing each individual EA to explain things our title should explain for us. While some can/will do it, others (including clients) may see it as "bragging" or feel that the forced detailing of our credentials and accomplishments equates to begging for approval. We should not have to explain "what's an EA" to each and every one of our clients.

The CPAs' title carrys the load for them. Ours doesn't. The worst CPA in the world can simply say "I'm a CPA" and no further explanation is needed. That's because clients realize the letters "CPA" stand for Certified Public Accountant, which in plain English means something to ordinary people. There's nothing wrong with the letters "EA" except that, translated to plain English, they stand for Enrolled Agent which means nothing to people.

Personally, I view CPAs as professional colleagues...I don't understand the attempt by some to knock others when it's so much easier to build myself up.

You may view them as your colleagues, but not all of them view you as theirs. I've run across a few who obviously preferred not to fraternize with the rank and file of the unenrolled (of which I once was a member). But...I'm not interested in them one way or the other because, again, that's a side issue and beside the point. It won't matter what either party thinks of the other if we can get a title as recognizable to the general public as CPA is.

That's where the challenge lies and...that's why we need a name change...

[Snaggletooth]

Boush (and Lomb) Lens

Len, you finally hit the nail on the head, although you sound very competent and I wish you would join our fraternity.

I appreciate the healthy dialogue on this thread -- the very premise is not whether we should be proud to be EAs (I am), nor to compare with CPAs or anyone else. The entire question revolves around perception by the public. Perception sells, and makes the world go around whether this is fair or not.

...and whether or not we would benefit if we collectively succeeded in changing the name and the misleading corollary image that we work for the IRS.

Thanks to everyone for their perspective on this thread.

[lenboush]

I am neither an Enrolled Agent nor a CPA

I am neither an Enrolled Agent nor a CPA, however I have been a professional tax preparer for over 30 years. Two of the preparers who work for me are starting to work on their EA and, although I swore I'd never deal with that after all these years, I can''t believe that they are actually shaming me into "considering" going for it. (unless I just get too lazy)

On the other hand, I have taught CPA's in classes, had CPA's as clients and had CPA's refer clients to me on a number of occasions simply because a lot of CPA's just do not wish to deal with taxes. It's not because they're not smart enought; they definitely are. Taxes are just not their area of specialty.

I, too view CPA's as colleagues and friends. Like any profession, including EA's, Non-EA's like myself and CPA's and any other profession, there are good and bad and everything in between in all of them.

I don't think most of the readers here question the quality of any of these categories of people. What they question is the value of a name that means absolutely nothing to the general public. That's why I have felt zero need to sit for the exam. Because to most people "EA" or "Enrolled Agent" means absolutely nothing. Believe me, if it did, I wouldn't have waited 35 years to even consider sitting for the exam.

[New York Enrolled Agent]

Black Bart wrote: "What about Sam's "legal reasons," L T?

Bart - IMO, Sam is a little off-target. The roots of the enrolled agent designation trace back to the Enabling Act of 1884. The legislation allowed the Treasury to recognize attorneys and agents. There were various regulatory actions with C230 eventually evolving. There were revisions etc. and (from what I've been told and I believe it to be reliable) the 1966 revision of C230 first use the phrase "enrolled agent" to universally describe those who were admitted to practice before the IRS. The formation of NAEA in 1972 runs concurrent with the appointment of the late Les Shapiro as Director of Practice. Les was a strong advocate for EAs. The phrase "enrolled agent" is a creation of Treasury. There is legislation in Congress right now to formalize enrolled agent into the IRC.

EVERYONE has an opinion about the "correct" designation for enrolled agents. I would suggest those who are EAs work to promote themselves as tax experts. NAEA continues to make progress in this area - probably the most recent public recognition was the 8 enrolled agents who appeared on the NBC Today show as "the" tax experts who answered over 700 tax questions from viewers. But without any doubt, the most successful way to promote the EA designation is by telling your clients how great you are as a tax professional!!! I respect Roland's opinion and he is correct to some degree. But, IMO, the answer is not to change the name - the answer is to self-promote. Make your clients aware of who you are.

Personally, I view CPAs as professional colleagues. They have certain skill sets I don't have. But, then I have certain tax skills that some of them do not have (nor desire to have). I don't understand the attempt by some to knock others when it's so much easier to build myself up.

[Black Bart]

What about Sam's "legal reasons," L T?

...but I have been a director of the state group for the last two years and have volunteered to write a newsletter this year, plus talking with officials of an adjoining state organization trying to get ideas.

LT

Do you know for sure if NAEA has concluded that a name change is impossible?

As far as being cost effective, we've got nowhere to go but up -- efforts to date have had almost zero effect.