Behold a dark horse.

[Jiggers]

Fair Tax

No CG tax, no income tax, no AMT, no SS or Medicare tax, no estate tax, just a 23% national retail sales tax.

So, taxes are going up?

That means that vendors at these arts and crafts events in small towns have to collect 23% tax?

That means that landlords have to collect 23% tax on the rent?

That means that farmers who sell hay to other farmers have to collect 23% tax?

That means that farmers who sell calves and other cattle have to collect 23% tax?

That us tax preparers have to collect 23% on our fees?

When pigs fly!

[thomtax]

Fair Tax?

I see nothing "fair" about the so called fair tax. It punishes the ones that can least afford to pay it and is a much larger percentage of their income.

Of course, now that I think about it, there will probably be some sort of give away to anyone making under $50,000 - along the lines of EIC. But look how many votes that will buy, telling everyone that they will get "free" money.

LT

[joanmcq]

23% tax? I think my taxes would go up, except that I'm not a big shopper, although I do like to eat.

I wonder what it would do to our economy...remember when they tried the luxury sales tax (affecting those most likely not to be affected much by a tax increase) and yacht sales plummented?

[xgflek]

I know one proposal on the fair tax set up an amount as basic living costs, and I dont know what the figure is but say $12000 and then proposes to mail out monthly checks to everybody in the amount of the sales tax on those costs, say $230 to everybody. Again not real sure of the specifics. As far as worrying about collecting 23% on our fees, if this ever passed I wouldn't have many fees to collect, part of the proposal is elimination of IRS and income tax returns, so I guess I would have to start preparing a ton of sales tax returns.

[Bees Knees]

People who just paid a bunch of tax on their Roth IRA conversions aren't going to like talk of repealing the tax code.

[JohnH]

True, but

they also aren't going to like it when a future Congress decides they got too much of a good deal and figures out how to tax their Roth withdrawals (at least the earnings portion). They will most likely tell us it's being done out of "fairness" to all the unfortunate ones who never had the opportunity to put money into a Roth in the first place or some other class-division nonsense.

[JoshinNC]

You are right, there will be a "give away" as you call it

I see nothing "fair" about the so called fair tax. It punishes the ones that can least afford to pay it and is a much larger percentage of their income.

Of course, now that I think about it, there will probably be some sort of give away to anyone making under $50,000 - along the lines of EIC. But look how many votes that will buy, telling everyone that they will get "free" money.

LT

Assume that it is determined that normal living expense for a family of four (housing, food, electricity, etc.) are $30,000 per year and 23% of that is $6900. They will recieve a direct deposit from the government on the first of the month for 1/12 of their $6900 to use to offset their Fair Tax payments. So, if they can live within their means and actually save their money as opposed to spending every penny they would have an effective tax rate of $0, just like they would today.

[Black Bart]

A non-event

No CG tax, no income tax, no AMT, no SS or Medicare tax, no estate tax, just a 23% national retail sales tax.

I'm not really worried about a national sales tax or a flat tax ever replacing the income tax (at least not permanently) because I view it as just a candidates' election ploy. Most people have heard for years how complicated and unfair our tax system is and now believe it, so that argument always plays well to political audiences.

I don't have any real statistics, but I've read that the top 10% of earners pay about 2/3 of all federal income tax. I have EIC people -- many of whom owe zero income tax -- complain about "these unfair taxes," following up that statement with "How much am I getting back?" I'd also guess the majority of people will never have to file an estate tax return, infrequently owe AMT, and have a large capital gain only once or twice in their lives. They have to pay income tax, but not usually a killer amount and many pay nothing at all except SS/Medicare.

Instead, hit them with 23% federal sales tax and add the state/local sales taxes (ours runs about 8%) which will of necessity be continued. How do you think the "average citizen" (as George Wallace used to put it) would feel about adding an extra 31% to the cost of each and every thing they bought each and every day all year long? Have you ever used the Internet to "get around" a measly state sales tax? What would you do to avoid 31%? Most people get mad about income tax once a year, but the Fair Tax would be a constant daily reminder of government taxation.

As a practical matter, when people got jolted with a good solid punch from that "simple" system, there'd be an outcry such as the country has never heard. Politicians would be scrambling for cover -- screaming in protest against this "outrageous burden on the backs of the working poor."

[BOB W]

Judy Wallman, a professional genealogical researcher, discovered
that Hillary Clinton's great-great uncle, Remus Rodham, was hanged
for horse stealing and train robbery in Montana in 1889.
The only known photograph of Remus shows him standing on the
gallows. On the back of the picture is this
inscription: 'Remus Rodham; Horse thief,
sent to Montana Territorial Prison 1885, escaped 1887,
robbed the Montana Flyer six times. Caught by Pinkerton
detectives, convicted and hanged in 1889.'

Judy e-mailed Hillary Clinton for comments. Hillary's staff of
professional image adjusters sent back the following biographical
sketch: 'Remus Rodham was a famous cowboy in the Montana Territory.
His business empire grew to include acquisition of valuable
equestrian assets and intimate dealings with the Montana railroad.
Beginning in 1883, he devoted several years of his life to service
at a government facility, finally taking leave to resume his dealings with
the
railroad.

In 1887, he was a key player in a vital investigation run by the
renowned Pinkerton Detective Agency. In 1889, Remus passed away
during an important civic function held in his honor when the
platform upon which he was standing collapsed.'



And THAT is how it's done folks!-----------GET READY!!!!-------

[JoshinNC]

Are you kidding me?!

Judy Wallman, a professional genealogical researcher, discovered
that Hillary Clinton's great-great uncle, Remus Rodham, was hanged
for horse stealing and train robbery in Montana in 1889.
The only known photograph of Remus shows him standing on the
gallows. On the back of the picture is this
inscription: 'Remus Rodham; Horse thief,
sent to Montana Territorial Prison 1885, escaped 1887,
robbed the Montana Flyer six times. Caught by Pinkerton
detectives, convicted and hanged in 1889.'

Judy e-mailed Hillary Clinton for comments. Hillary's staff of
professional image adjusters sent back the following biographical
sketch: 'Remus Rodham was a famous cowboy in the Montana Territory.
His business empire grew to include acquisition of valuable
equestrian assets and intimate dealings with the Montana railroad.
Beginning in 1883, he devoted several years of his life to service
at a government facility, finally taking leave to resume his dealings with
the
railroad.

In 1887, he was a key player in a vital investigation run by the
renowned Pinkerton Detective Agency. In 1889, Remus passed away
during an important civic function held in his honor when the
platform upon which he was standing collapsed.'



And THAT is how it's done folks!-----------GET READY!!!!-------

I know she is the queen of doublespeak and spin, but that's just crazy. Who in their right mind would even think to come up with that explanation?

[joanmcq]

Somehow that just reeks of joke...in fact, I just checked. Just a joke circulating around the internet. Insert any politician's name and you describe how spin works...

[veritas]

Who pays federal taxes?

I may have posted this before.

http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/reports/factsheetwhopaysmostindividualincometaxes.update.pdf

[Nashville]

You can't listen

to what these candidates promise. The BEST you can do is track their voting record, if you can.

A Republican example is the "Read My Lips" tax of George Bush, Sr.

A Democrat example is less blatant but just as bad: As a 1992 candidate, Bill Clinton promised a middle-class tax cut to be financed with a surtax on the "very wealthy" making over $200K per year. What actually happened was NO tax cut, and the "very wealthy" became ordinary middle-class hard-working taxpayers.

Try this website, and look at actual voting records instead of campaign rhetoric:

https://www.vote-smart.org

[veritas]

Here's a favorite of mine

from Bill Clinton;

"People in this room are still mad at me at that budget because you think I raised your taxes too much. Well, it might surprise you to know I think I raised them too much, too."

[Black Bart]

Hey Beaver -- uh, no, excuse me; I meant Ward

from Bill Clinton;

"People in this room are still mad at me at that budget because you think I raised your taxes too much. Well, it might surprise you to know I think I raised them too much, too."

And what are you also doing up at this time of night when all good accountants should be safely tucked in bed?

Yeah, Bill wasn't such a bad guy overall. I saw him in person once -- my boss threw a big fish fry for him before he got to be anybody (he was running for governor here) and my father-in-law shook hands with him and told him he thought he'd be president one day. Bill thanked him profusely (who'd have thought my FIL was that smart, since he'd allowed me to join his family?). Later, the boss suggested that all office employees donate to Bill's campaign. I took the hint, kicked in $25 (about $100 in today's dollars), and got invited years later to the presidential inaugural ball (the power of cash -- it's just amazing). Actually the invitation was a form letter -- I mean, it's not like he personally invited me or anything. But I couldn't afford a trip to Washington (they wouldn't have let me off from work anyway), so I consoled myself with the personal satisfaction of having bought the affection of the prez at a bargain price.

Ole Bill -- all he really did was tell lies and chase women. I know lots of people like that. He "messed up" a lot, but got the budget balanced and the economy in great shape (which sounds pretty good to me right now -- business is awful here). How are things in Oregon nowadays?