Business mileage

[Bees Knees]

The only thing changed by Rev. Rul. 99-7 is the definition of temporary, meaning less than one year.

[Bees Knees]

with Black Bart. Had a friend that lost on an audit because of the very post office instance cited by him.

If the post office is not a temporary work location, then driving to the post office to mail a client's return and then driving back to your office would be considered non-deductible miles.

You can't say on the one hand, stopping at the post office to mail a client's return is not a temporary job location because you were going that way anyway on your way to the office, and then say making a special trip the post office to mail a client's return is deductible because it is a temporary location.

Either the post office is a temporary location, or it is not. There is no other scenario in any of the Revenue Rulings that allow for a special trip to the post office or office supply store, other than calling it a temporary work location.

Your friend didn't know how to argue with the auditor.

[oceanlovin'ea]

Partially deductible

So if I reading all these posts correctly, her mileage from the post office to the office would be deductible but not from home to post office. Or if she stops at the bank on the way to office or home from office, the mileage between bank and office would be deductible portion.

With the cost of gas so high, probably most small business owners now stop on their way in or on way home at post office, bank, office supply, etc. You can't always leave the office in the middle of the day to drive across town to bank or store.

IRS should begin to make some concessions on matters like this, although I am sure that energy conservation is not top priority with the IRS.

Thanks for all the posts. It has been an interesting discussion.

Linda F

[Jiggers]

I think it is deductible

So if I reading all these posts correctly, her mileage from the post office to the office would be deductible but not from home to post office. Or if she stops at the bank on the way to office or home from office, the mileage between bank and office would be deductible portion.

With the cost of gas so high, probably most small business owners now stop on their way in or on way home at post office, bank, office supply, etc. You can't always leave the office in the middle of the day to drive across town to bank or store.

IRS should begin to make some concessions on matters like this, although I am sure that energy conservation is not top priority with the IRS.

Thanks for all the posts. It has been an interesting discussion.

Linda F

Linda,
I think the message from Bees Knees says that it is deductible.

[Gene V]

What Bees Knees is saying is that the Post Office, Bank and Supply stores are your temporary jobs and are deductible mileages from your home. I would say they are only deductible if your have a home office.

In order for these places to be temporary jobs, they would have to last less then one year.
If you been in business more then a year, and been going to the bank, supply store and Post office for more then one year, then they couldn’t be temporary.

[Black Bart]

Dear Enlightened One (aka Bees Knees)

Your friend didn't know how to argue with the auditor.

Please stop shooting holes in the arguments of those who support my theories -- the last time anybody agreed with me on anything (before Solomon) was 1986.

Now: If you and NYEA (dadgum know-it-all smart alecks) will stop firing off those Roman candle Revenue Rulings and answer this. Residence is out in the country. Post office is 7 3/4 miles away in town -- office is eight miles (quarter-mile further). Obviously, once you get to the office and later drive to the post office, it's business expense. BUT, is there a clear-cut answer on the original trip TO the office. Are you saying the 7 3/4 miles is business? All eight? 1/4 only? None?

Or, are you saying there's nothing in the literature that directly addresses such a nitpickin' question other than your previously outlined "temp work location" strategy and so forth.

Respondez, s'il vous plait.

[Corduroy Frog]

Slug it Out

I love to watch the heavyweights slug it out, while I remain safely on the sidelines!

In the Black Bart example, I'm thinking so long as the driver left enough mileage in his percentage breakdown to allow for commuting (7.75 miles x 2 x 240 days), he should be OK. You know, those cumbersome little questions you have to answer about total mileage, business mileage, personal mileage, etc. to establish business %...

[solomon]

My friend

knew how to argue, it is just that crispy donuts and the post office did not fit Bees definition of a temporary work location. Bart's got it right.

[Bees Knees]

OK, I will concede that the post office is not a very good example of a temporary work location, since if you are in business, you probably expect to be going there longer than one year.

Having said that, then there is no justification for deducting miles from home to the post office and back, unless, as Gene V correctly pointed out, you have an office in the home. If the post office, or office supply story, or whatever store is not a temporary work location (because of the one year rule), then the only way you can deduct mileage to any of those places is:

1) You have a qualified home office, or
2) You drive from your regular place of business to the post office (job to job miles).

Now, lets clarify the temporary work location rule. The temporary work location rule does not require you to subtract your normal commuting miles that you would have incurred anyway.

Example: You have a regular office away from your home that you commute to every day that is 10 miles from your home. You do not have an office in home. On the way to work one day, you stop off at a client’s house to pick up some work. Your client is 2 miles from your home and 9 miles from your office. You normally would have driven 10 miles as non-deductible commuting miles. However, because your client’s house is a temporary work location, and you have a regular place of work away from your home, the 2 miles it takes to drive to your client’s house is deductible miles under the temporary work location rule, and the 9 miles from your client’s house to your office is deductible under the job to job mileage rule. Thus the total 11 miles driven is deductible, and you are not required to subtract from those miles the normal 10 miles it takes to commute each day.

That is what the Revenue Ruling says, and any auditor that would try to argue otherwise is simply showing his or her ignorance of established law.

[Bees Knees]

BTW, there is NO Revenue Ruling that says you have to figure out normal commuting miles and subtract those miles from your temporary work location miles, or your job to job miles. Those of you who insist on making up some kind of formula to calculate business miles, show me your citation.

Tax law is not about logic. Tax law is not about what is fair. How many times do I have to explain that tax law is nothing more than following a bunch of mixed up stupid rules that often are contradictory and make no sense in the world. Period. Stop trying to read junk into the rules simply because you think it seems like the logical way to do it.

[Corduroy Frog]

The requirement exists

Bees, the requirement exists, although not by citation. Although a tax reg. or ruling can serve as an Ace of Trumps to defeat logic, we are still forced to use reason in our modus operandi.

For example, in determining business per cent usage, we are forced on Schedule C and alternatively on page 2 of Form 4562 to compute commuting mileage. If someone lives 7 miles from work, and works 240 days, what other logical answer is there except 3,360 miles? Of course, that doesn't guarantee that any excess is deductible or not deductible, but it does seem that it would be difficult to justify less than 3360 miles as being personal.

[Bees Knees]

For example, in determining business per cent usage, we are forced on Schedule C and alternatively on page 2 of Form 4562 to compute commuting mileage. If someone lives 7 miles from work, and works 240 days, what other logical answer is there except 3,360 miles? Of course, that doesn't guarantee that any excess is deductible or not deductible, but it does seem that it would be difficult to justify less than 3360 miles as being personal.

OK, lets take your example. Logically, the guy has to have at least 3,360 out of total miles that are non-deductible commuting miles. Right?

Wrong, because 1,000 of those 3360 commuting miles were commuting to a temporary work location during the year, which in turn made them deductible miles under Rev. Rul. 99-7.

Follow the rules.

[Black Bart]

Wait, wait!

OK, I will concede that the post office is not a very good example of a temporary work location, since if you are in business, you probably expect to be going there longer than one year.

Do we have to give up on the post office?

I don't have a client to stop by and see every day, but I do have to go to the post office about twice a week. Would the fact that this "temp work location" isn't visited on consecutive days have any effect on the over one year bar and/or would that just stretch it out so I could deduct if for, say, three years before the 2 days added up to a year's worth of days? I know this is grasping at straws, but your example below is a wonderful, if illogical (yuk-yuk), way to convert commuting to biz expense. In fact, if it'll fly, I may change commuting ('scuse me -- I mean business travel) routes: one's eight miles and the post office is on the way to work. The other's ten and the post office is on the other side of the office (not on the way to work).

Example: You have a regular office away from your home that you commute to every day that is 10 miles from your home. You do not have an office in home. On the way to work one day, you stop off at a client’s house to pick up some work. Your client is 2 miles from your home and 9 miles from your office. You normally would have driven 10 miles as non-deductible commuting miles. However, because your client’s house is a temporary work location, and you have a regular place of work away from your home, the 2 miles it takes to drive to your client’s house is deductible miles under the temporary work location rule, and the 9 miles from your client’s house to your office is deductible under the job to job mileage rule. Thus the total 11 miles driven is deductible, and you are not required to subtract from those miles the normal 10 miles it takes to commute each day.

[Black Bart]

Great reply, Sol; great reply.

Bart's got it right.

Feel free to run this statement as many times as you can before you get a cussin'.

[outwest]

and whoa some more..

Let's say you run a lawnmowing business (year round in the south). Are we saying that if I do Sam Suburban's lawn for more than a year, I can't deduct the expenses of my beat up truck to go there?

You know, I think I'm going to continue to deduct the travel from job to job, the post office to pick up my checks, and the parts house to get the a tranny for the ol' beater.

(With that old truck, you can bet I'll be going the the parts house for years to come.)