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Schedule C Losses Forever

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    Schedule C Losses Forever

    The idea for this post came from a similar one about people who declare losses on Schedule F year after year. I am persuaded that at least some people get by with doing that. Can Schedule C Filers do the same thing? Here are the particulars of a case I have.

    I took the client last year but they had not filed for 2004 because of a disagreement with the CPA who prepared the 2003 return. They blamed him and he blamed them for the fact that on a previous return there was an error. The clients had an installment agreement in settlement of that situation, and by the time I took over their case they were in default. However, I was able to get the IRS to reinstate the installment agreement and as I understand it the client is current on these payments. When I took over the case the client was over a year behind on state sales tax payments, but I was able to get that straightened out. They tell me that they are again a month behind on those but that they expect to be current by the end of March including penalties and interest. This is a couple that clearly does not understand very much about how money works or how taxes work. At one point last year the taxpayer suggested to me that owing the government money is like owing yourself money, and not a problem.

    They have a "niche" in the garage business and they pull in over 200K a year despite a huge amount of receivables. While I was straightening out their installment agreement last year a fellow drove off in his newly repaired car without paying anything toward the repair, despite the fact that his other car had been repaired four months previously and he had still paid nothing on it. Oh, on top of that, they frequently do work at their cost or even for free because they feel the need to help poor people. Anyway, for all these reasons, revenue is more than matched by expenses and I don't think the garage has ever shown a profit. I forget when they started, but 2003 was not their first year. The money to start the garage apparently came from cashing his his pension from 20 years as an NCO in the Army and her pension from a similar period as a business executive. Funds left over from that plus gifts from the children and credit are what they live on to date.

    I have by the way helped them with their receivables. They hired a collection firm on the old ones and actually recovered quite a bit. They also began a policy of discounting bills ten percent if paid within ten days and of charging 18% interest after thirty days. They tell me that they may have a profit for 07 because these changes have resulted in most people paying when picking up their cars. They are sure that they have been profitable in the last six months of the year and that they will make a profit for 08. In this scenario, is there a problem with another year of loss in 07 particularly if it is a smaller loss than in previous years and is followed by a profit in 08? Furthermore, would it be ethical to leave expenses off a return and falsely show and pay tax on a profit as long as you avoid claiming the Earned Income Credit?

    #2
    Originally posted by erchess View Post
    Furthermore, would it be ethical to leave expenses off a return and falsely show and pay tax on a profit as long as you avoid claiming the Earned Income Credit?
    NO, NO, NO. Never ever do an incorrect return for whatever reasons.

    If they have a profit motive, which they seem to have, there is no problem, no matter how many years they have losses. The IRS looks at depreciation and if there is a profit leaving depreciation off there also is no problem.

    I hope you got paid already for all the work you have done.

    Comment


      #3
      When I was in training prior to my first year

      in the tax business I read in Pub 17 a statement I took to mean that stating one's expenses was optional as long as leaving them off did not increase a refundable credit such as EIC. This was affirmed in the lecture portion of class although I hasten to add that the statement was not in any of the other written materials we used in the course. This was in the fall of 1991 or 1992. Did I misunderstand or has there been a change? (And by the way, I know not to knowingly prepare an incorrect return. If putting certain expenses incurred by the taxpayer on the return were optional, then it would not be incorrect to leave them off.)

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by erchess View Post
        Did I misunderstand or has there been a change?
        It was a personal opinion by your teacher. It is very unprofessional as it indicates you are trying to help your client hide something.

        Hobby loss rules apply to businesses that are in fact hobbies. An auto repair shop is hardly a hobby. You could show losses for 20 years straight and I doubt IRS would question whether it is a hobby.

        What the IRS would really be looking for is unreported income. Small businesses are notorious for un-reported cash under the table. Your client with next to no bookkeeping and money skills would be a prime target for a lifestyle audit, where the auditor looks at their standard of living and questions where the money is coming from to pay for all of those things.

        Plus the fact that they have a poor opinion of their tax obligation makes them a prime suspect for cheating. You trying to help by leaving off expenses could make you look like an accomplice.

        Comment


          #5
          Look at their bank statements

          and reconcile deposits if you can, at least to give you an idea whether or not there might
          be unreported income.
          But Bees has the rights of it. He is in a notorious cash business and many times,
          unless paid with a check, cash goes into pocket and no invoice is even made out.
          (while I think of it, OP spoke of his "cashing in" his pension after 20 years as an NCO.
          This just isn't so. An NCO retires and earns a lifetime pension. No option for lump sum
          here.)

          A sales tax auditor if he ever arrived, would look at purchases of car parts among other
          things. An income tax auditor would be looking at comparable markups in this
          industry.
          Oh, and just because there are apparently "unpaid" invoices, doesn't mean they haven't
          been collected. And no, I'm not calling him a crook! (grin)
          ChEAr$,
          Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA

          Comment


            #6
            One of those I've had..

            I used the accrual income figure and the cash expenses. I'd look at the AR aging and they would say they were all paid, nobody got the keys to the car without payment. I figured the invoiced amount was the real cash income.

            Pleased to say, we've gotten away from that problem. All receipts are now recorded and deposited to checking.

            Comment

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