I have noticed in your book and pub 17 that a dependnent care credit is not allowed for kindergarten. I have always taken kindergarten. I went back to a 1990 pub 17 (page 170 middle column) and it says you can't take from first grade on. So in 1990 kindergarten was ok. What changed? Did Congress change the law or did IRS change the regs, or did IRS just change things because they felt like it? I am trying to figure out if a taxpayer can claim kindergarten and attach a note to the return that they disagree with the IRS' position.
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Yep
>>Did Congress change the law<<
Yep, that's it! -
Claim kindergarten?
What are you talking about? Do you pay for kindergarten in MA (maybe it's a Kennedy thing). Kindergarten is part of public school instruction, not daycare. What would you deduct? I'm not trying to be funny, just want to know what you would be deducting.Comment
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From Kram
First we have read the law and Congress did not change it.
We think the IRS just decided that kindergarten is school not care.
In MA kindergarten is optional. A child could skip it and go straight to first grade. So, for now,I will argue that kindergarten is child care in MA and therfore eligible as a child care expense.
Second, some children go to parochial school or private school for kindergarten. For this one pays.Comment
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Kiddiegarter
IRS instructions say that the cost of schooling for a child in Kindergarten or above is not eligible.
Pre-K qualifies. That is what I claim.Jiggers, EAComment
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TTB, page 1-8 under Child and Dependent Care Expense Credit: "The Form 2441 instructions changed in 2005. Costs of schooling a child in kindergarten or above are not qualified epxneses. Prior year versions of Form 2441 excluded costs for children in the first grade or above."
TTB Editors do not argue with IRS on their logic. We just tell it like it says in the Pubs and instructions, unless of course we find a court case that contradicts the IRS.
No tax law, however, was passed in 2005 that changed this. It was the IRS that decided to change the rules.Comment
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I admit I was wrong
>>No tax law, however, was passed in 2005 that changed this. It was the IRS that decided to change the rules.<<
I admit I was wrong on this point, but I surrender only to Kram, who said, "we have read the law and Congress did not change it." In setting up this particular credit (IRC Sec. 21), Congress specifically instructed the IRS to issue regulations which have the force of law, and these regs that Congress required DID change.
I think the IRS is saying that kindergarten is not personal care in the way a preschool is. Kindergarten is a school with a standard curriculum. However, if Kram can find a private kindergarten that says it does NOT give the kids a headstart on their schooling, I'll support his position (at least for a short time while the underworld freezeth over).Comment
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This is an interesting string. The IRS changed the rules? I thought the IRS Code were laws, and didn't realize the IRS could rewrite the laws. What would be the most likely outcome in the tax court?Originally posted by Brad Imsdahl View PostComment
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optional kindergarten
In my town, my son who is 4 is going to pre-k for a couple hours a day, 3 days a week (to get socialized). I pay for this and it is offered at a Public Elementary School. At that same school, when my son reaches Kindergarten, he will attend half days, 5 days a week. Now for the parents who do not stay at home like I do, they can keep their kids in that classroom for the afternoon and pay a price per hour (similiar to daycare expenses) and have them ride the bus home (or pick them up) at the end of the day, instead of actually have them leave the school and go to daycare for the 2nd half of the day. In this case, I would think this is considered a dependent care expenses. It's called "kinderlinks care". IF THEY are offering an additional curriculum for the 2nd half of the day, then my son is missing out a bit; because he'll only be educated by the school for a 1/2 day, and the remainder of the day is spent with his little brother and "dear old" mom (I say this with a bit of humor). Half the class may be ahead of the other half based purely on this fact alone. But then again, I am not wanting to bring up any disputes on daycare kids, versus stay at home kids and their intellect levels!! I feel like at the end of the day, you can look at a man on the street and not know whether or not he spent all day with mom and siblings, or with a bunch of 5 year old kids before he was the age of 6.
I guess I just really think that in some instances, kindergarten care would be considered the same as day care expenses. Just my two cents!Comment
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Some IRS regulations interpret the law. Others have the force of legislation. I guess it depends on whether Congress want to spell out the rules or allow the IRS to do so.Originally posted by Zee View PostComment
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There is nothing in the Code that says whether it is Kindergarten or first grade. Those were put in by IRS per regulations.Originally posted by Zee View PostComment
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just one person's opinion
>>put in by IRS per regulations<<
That doesn't mean it is just one person's opinion so you don't have to follow it unless it is supported by an act of Congress or a federal court. Regulations have the force of law. In this particular section, Congress actually orders the Treasury Department to fill in the details, which is a little stronger language than applies to many other sections.
The changing nature of kindergarten (greatly influenced by the private schools Kram is asking about) prompted the IRS to update the rules. Although attending kindergarten may be optional, the tax treatment of such expenses is not.Comment
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