A great scandal

[jainen]

A great scandal is how hard it is for some students to graduate from high school and meet the minimum requirements for entry to the state university. The high schools just don't offer the credits one needs. If students can't get AP classes, which are the foundation for the best scholarships as well as to boost grade point averages for top colleges, they have to enroll in the community college before they graduate.

Are they eligible for the Hope Credit in such a case? I have a client with a 1098-T marked more than half time, but he is still a high school senior.

Actually my question is not can he count this as his first year of post-secondary education, but does he have to count it? The fees are only $800, and we would like to save the credit for the next two years when his fees will be five times as much. But he will enter university as a sophomore!

[WhiteOleander]

It says in TTB (don't have it here with me) that the Hope credit cannot be used for elementary or secondary school.

So, I think I would just use the Lifetime credit. Save the Hope Credit for later.

[farm girl]

One of the qualifications needed

for the Hope credit is that the student has to be a degree candidate and usually kids in high school are not. So I would say unless this kid IS a degree candidate he wouldn't qualify for the Hope this year. He should be able to get it for 2 years while he is in college since he didn't complete the first 2 years of post-secondary education - it doesn't matter if he's a sophomore or junior.

[WhiteOleander]

for the Hope credit is that the student has to be a degree candidate and usually kids in high school are not. So I would say unless this kid IS a degree candidate he wouldn't qualify for the Hope this year. He should be able to get it for 2 years while he is in college since he didn't complete the first 2 years of post-secondary education - it doesn't matter if he's a sophomore or junior.

Hope Credit can only be claimed for Freshman/Sophomore ranking. Junior and up cannot qualify for Hope.

[Snaggletooth]

Mis-Information

I think what is happening is this kid is still in high school, and during summer vacation is taking intensive courses which result in college credit. So from one perspective, he is not yet "in college." However, Jainen's $800 is just a smattering of what the cost would be if he were "in college." No question that this would qualify for the Hope credit, but the first year of the credit would be a paltry sum.

He's trying to invoke a strategy to wait until tuition is several thousand dollars for the first two years the kid is "in college." I believe his strategy is what Congress had in mind when they passed the law, and the law did not embrace aberrant situations such as this.

This is a grey area, and I would have the nerve to maximize this for my client. But I can't give Jainen a thumbs up or down as to whether this is considered allowable or not.

[MomBob]

tuition and fee deduction

Did the parents pay for the education expenses? If so they may qualify for the tuition and fees deduction.

[veritas]

I don't think

you have to count the tuition for the hope credit. Everything says you "can" claim the credit if the requiremets are met.

On the other hand.

I don't see a reason why you could not take the amount for the lifetime learning credit.

[Koss]

Original Question

Jainen's original question is much more esoteric...

A high school student who racks up college credits before graduation may get screwed out of one year of the Hope Credit.

During his "first year" in college, he is also in high school, and he is not eligible for the Hope Credit because he is not enrolled in a degree program.

During his "second year" in college, he will take the Hope Credit.

During his "third year" in college--which is really only his "second year" of postsecondary education (postsecondary = after high school), he will be ineligible for the Hope Credit because by the number of credit hours he has accumulated, he will be a junior.

That's a scandal, but it's pretty hard to do.

A student who follows the "traditional" path, graduating from high school in May, and starting college in September, is a freshman at the beginning of the calendar year in which he graduated from high school, and he is also a freshman at the beginning of the next calendar year. He becomes a sophomore the following September, so he is not considered a sophomore until the third calendar year of college enrollment.

This student (or his parents) may choose which two of the three years they will claim the Hope Credit.

So the student following the classic pattern actually has three calendar years during which they are considered to be in the first two years of postsecondary education, because the determining factor is the student's standing at the beginning of the calendar year.

A student who has accumulated college credits while in high school may not have this extra flexibility. But in most cases, they would still be considered either a freshman or a sophomore for at least two calendar years after high school.

Jainen: the standing is determined by the college, based on credit hours earned. It is not determined chronologically. What about a part time student? They might be a freshman for two calendar years and a sophomore for two calendar years. But you can only use the Hope Credit twice.

Burton M. Koss

[jainen]

>>you "can" claim the credit<<

The Hope credit is not available for just any two years or college, only for the first two years. My question is whether a high school student who graduates with 12 college units already earned has used up one of the first two years of the Hope credit.

[veritas]

I see what you are driving at.

I would agree with Koss.

An example is my nephew who entered college with somewhere around 20 credit hours from the local community college. He still will attend four years for his baccaulareate degree at state college.

[Bonnie]

Hope credit

>>you "can" claim the credit<<

The Hope credit is not available for just any two years or college, only for the first two years. My question is whether a high school student who graduates with 12 college units already earned has used up one of the first two years of the Hope credit.

I say NO because:

Pub 17 page 226 says the student had not completed the first 2 years of postsecondary education (generally , the freshman and sophomore years of college.)

I interpret this to mean the first 2 years of postsecondary education can be used for the Hope credit. In parenthesis it is only explaining this is generally freshman and sophomore. I don't see it saying if the student is a junior for the 2nd year they cannot take the Hope credit. I see it as for a limit of 2 years which has to be the first 2 years.

[jainen]

You must not have kids

>>this kid is still in high school, and during summer vacation is taking intensive courses which result in college credit<<

You must not have kids in high school. Actually what is happening is kids take regular college classes during the regular school day of the regular year. There is a campus of University of California in my town where this happens routinely, although my particular client is going to the community college.

The schools have a special admissions program for high school students, and the high schools write it up as independent study or some nonsense. It is often the only way to acquire a second language, significant science lab experience, access to a decent research library, or adequate advanced instruction in art or music. These classes are commonly the most important element in a college application, and the high schools can't even begin to provide such opportunities.

Good high schools offer Advanced Placement classes and testing that serve the same purpose in a more suitable environment for the age level, but it's rare.

[Gretel]

I say NO because:

Pub 17 page 226 says the student had not completed the first 2 years of postsecondary education (generally , the freshman and sophomore years of college.)

I interpret this to mean the first 2 years of postsecondary education can be used for the Hope credit. In parenthesis it is only explaining this is generally freshman and sophomore. I don't see it saying if the student is a junior for the 2nd year they cannot take the Hope credit. I see it as for a limit of 2 years which has to be the first 2 years.

First two years of postsecondary education is a standard set by college. You could be in your first two years for four years and have the choice to which two years you want to apply the Hope Credit. As long as the college consideres you to be in your freshman or sophomore year you are good for Hope.

[WhiteOleander]

First two years of postsecondary education is a standard set by college. You could be in your first two years for four years and have the choice to which two years you want to apply the Hope Credit. As long as the college consideres you to be in your freshman or sophomore year you are good for Hope.

I agree with this. You cannot take the Hope if you are ranked Junior or Senior or Graduate level.

[veritas]

So the school

sends your kid over to the community college (which you pay for) and then the school collects full boat from the state and county?