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    #16
    Card not required

    Physical examination of the social security card is not required.

    Form 8867 can be completed with information provided by the taxpayer or reasonably obtained by you. See page 4, line 20, of the official IRS version of the form.

    There is absolutely nothing in that form or in the IRC that requires us to examine identification documents of our clients.

    It might be a good idea in some cases. But it is not required as a matter of routine.

    The meaning of due diligence is going to vary with individual facts and circumstances. My software, for example, asks if the taxpayer is a US citizen. If the answer is no, there are other choices: resident alien with a green card, resident alien by the substantial presence test, or nonresident alien.

    If a client represents to me that they are a US citizen, I think it is reasonable to infer that their social security card does not say "not valid for employment."

    FYI: There is no law that requires anyone, at any time or for any purpose, to obtain a social security card or to have such a card in their possession. It is certainly true that under IRS regulations, you must have an SSN or ITIN in order to file a return, claim a dependent, etc. But the requirement is that you must have and you must provide a social security number. There is no requirement that anyone have, carry or produce a card.

    Today I met with a guy who was 40 years old, and he had what may have been his original social security card, issued shortly after he was born. Those of you who are over the age of 40 or so probably know what's coming next.

    At the bottom of the card it says:

    "For tax purposes only. Not for identification."

    There is a photo of one of these old cards in the most recent edition of Newsweek. It's part of a graphic that accompanies an article by Allan Sloan on social security. The image of the card is partially obscured by a band-aid. But you can still see the text I'm referring to.

    Social security cards were never meant to be used as identification documents. They were meant to provide a record of the social security account number to the account holder. They serve a purpose similar to that of a library card or an auto insurance card.

    If I visit the library and I don't have my card with me, I simply show my driver's license.

    If I get stopped for speeding and can't find my insurance card... yeah, it might be a hassle, and I might have to mail something to the BMV, or appear in court, but I can produce a copy of the policy to show that I have insurance. And even that doesn't really prove anything. The policy could be cancelled, and the cop would never know it.

    Not only are you not required to have a social security card, you might be prohibited from getting one in some cases. There's a new law that limits the number of replacement cards you can get. No, I don't have the citation handy. But I'm not making this up.

    The card is not meant to be carried around, and it isn't an identification document. Tax pros have relatively low exposure. But anyone else, such as schools, hospitals, police officers, landlords... anyone else who demands that a person produce the card is running a serious risk of some form of litigation or violation of other laws or regulations.

    Asking a client if the card is "not valid for employment," or as I noted earlier, asking if they are a US citizen and getting a yes answer should be sufficient in most cases.

    For those who really believe we have to see the card:

    Are you going to start requesting school or medical records to confirm that the child lived with the taxpayer for more than half the year? Do you demand the birth certificate to verify that the relationship test is met?

    Your job is to collect information--not verify it. Due diligence really only becomes a serious issue when there are obvious red flags, or when the client provides conflicting information.

    Some years ago, we had a client in my office who had claimed his girlfriend's kid as a dependent under the rules in effect in 2003. Back then you could have the kid as a dependent under the vague definition of a foster child for dependency, but not for EIC.

    A few days after we filed the return, he came back in, very belligerent and confrontational, demanding that we explain why we had not allowed him to claim EIC. We explained it to him several times, in several different ways. He couldn't get past the fact that some other tax pro had told him that he could. He finally left, still fuming.

    The guy came back a few days later, still royally pissed off, and changed his story:

    The child's mother was actually his sister. (When we did the return, the kid was his girlfriend's kid.)

    I work in a storefront practice with multiple offices. This particular office had a lot of different people working that year during the peak of the season. Some were new tax pros, and one or two spoke English as their second language. His claim that we had somehow garbled the information when we did the return, under other circumstances, might have been a real possibility, albeit far-fetched.

    But under these circumstances, it was clear to me that the guy had figured out how the relationship test worked, and was trying to change the facts so he could claim EIC for the kid. My office manager had a hard time keeping a straight face. A week earlier, the guy was arguing about how close the relationship was between him and the kid's mother, and how he's like a father to the kid, and now... well, now, the woman whom he had earlier identified as his sexual partner was now his sister. It was a hoot, at least for everyone except the client, who had probably already spent the EIC refund that he wasn't getting.

    He wanted us to prepare an amended return.

    I told him that in order to do so, we would need documentation of the relationships he was describing. He asked me what kind of documentation, and I told him.

    I told him we would need to see birth certificates for him, for his sister, and for the child.

    He said he would bring them in.

    And we never heard from him again.

    That's due diligence.

    Demanding that the client produce a social security card when you are looking at a Form W-2 from the Department of Defense is not due diligence. It's an insult.

    Burton M. Koss
    Last edited by Koss; 02-01-2007, 12:59 AM.
    Burton M. Koss
    koss@usakoss.net

    ____________________________________
    The map is not the territory...
    and the instruction book is not the process.

    Comment


      #17
      8867

      My software (ATX) doesn't have a signature line for clients, but I agree with some of the others that the 8867 is to confirm our compliance with rules rather than that of our clients.

      Having said that, I've made up a half-page affadavit that I have all clients claiming EIC to sign. I don't know (or care) if it's strictly according to Hoyle or even legal, but at least it nails down the fact that the client knows he/she is claiming EIC (and some other things) AND cannot come back later when the fat's in the IRS fire and say "I didn't know a thing about what they were claiming for me." It's a tad longer than what I usually write up for CYA purposes, but not so lengthy that a government man could say it would have been unreasonable to expect to someone to read it entirely.

      It goes:

      This is to certify that the following facts and circumstances for tax year________ are true, correct, and complete to the best of my knowledge and belieft: I paid over half the cost of keeping up a home in which I lived and over half the support of my____child/children/dependents________________________________________ who lived with me for more than six months. I am claiming them as they apply for earned income credit, child tax credit, dependency exemptions, child care expenses, and head of household filing status. Each of them is my qualifying child or qualifying relative for those purposes and is NOT a qualifying child or qualifying relative of OTHERS for those purposes. Each of them had gross income of less than $3,300 OR was under age 19 (age 17 for child tax credit) at the end of the year OR was a full-time student under age 24 at the end of the year OR was permanently and totally disabled regardless of age. I have been informed of and/or understand the rules necessary to qualify my children and dependents or relatives for the above-mentioned credits and for my selected income tax filing status of:______________________. If filing as head of household, I certify that I was separated from and did not live with my spouse for the last six months of the tax year. I release Black Bart Boondoggles, LLC from all liability for their preparation of and/or advice about this tax return and any related matters. My total income is from the following sources:


      Signed___________________________ Date_________

      As for social security cards, I don't see anything wrong with copying them. The customers routinely expect to be asked to provide you with "official" documents and never complain, so I Xerox everybody's cards the first year they arrive (if they brought them -- if not, they can tell me/call it back), write their date of birth beside each one, and tape that inside the jacket of their file folder.

      P.S. I know some "by-the-book" people will say the wording of the affadavit above may be too all/non-inclusive/ inaccurate/ wrong/ hogwash; but clients know they've signed a piece of paper swearing they could claim those kids, which I think might prevent a lawsuit somewhere down the line (besides, the lawyers I've met wouldn't know if it's right or wrong anyway -- all they know is April 15th's the deadline and they can get $1,000 for our $100 jobs).
      Last edited by Black Bart; 02-01-2007, 03:02 AM.

      Comment


        #18
        Thank you

        Burton and Bart,

        Thank you for these posts, as I really didn't want to start asking my clients for the Social Security Card. Whew! You both have assisted in clearly defining some due diligence procedures that can be used, if circumstances present themselves.



        Sandy

        Comment


          #19
          Carding

          Originally posted by S T View Post
          ...I really didn't want to start asking my clients for the Social Security Card...
          Well; I think I'd just do whatever I prefer, is best, easiest, etc. If you'd rather not ask for cards, then you can just ask for the number.

          I'm not really particularly interested in seeing their cards, and they can just tell it to me if they want -- the advantage is that it's quicker and more accurate to copy it. You know for sure that the name and number are right when you have the actual card, because some people mistakenly give you a wrong number or a nickname/ middle name/ misspell it, etc.
          But I've done it both ways, whichever was handiest at the time.

          Comment


            #20
            I guess what got me started on this was in the other quick reference book the way they layout the due diligence seemed somewhat threatening. Plus the change in the EIC worksheet being so different. My concern with these customers is that I am not sure about the status of the social security card. They are from Mexico. So the "not valid for work" is what I really need to know on them. But I've been doing their taxes for 5 years so...

            Thanks Burton and Bart. You guys did clarify.

            Comment


              #21
              More

              I do ask for the cards on the new dependents, newly married, to check out whether spouse name has changed, etc.

              Again, I am not in a position that I have a lot of clients that I don't already know, mostly long relatiionship clients, referrals to other family members, some friends, etc.

              I could see why maybe the "photocopy" of the Social Security Card or at least viewing would be important, for clients that you did not know or if the practice consisted of "one time" clients, like some "walk-in" offices.

              I guess we all have to define what we need to accomplish for due diligence and what we are comfortable with in our own practices and circumstances.

              Sandy

              Comment


                #22
                Thanks for the thanks, Dany (and Sandy), but

                Originally posted by geekgirldany View Post

                ...I am not sure about the status of the social security card. They are from Mexico. So the "not valid for work" is what I really need to know on them...
                I don't think I helped much. We've got several Mexicans around here, but I don't have any (except one long-time naturalized citizen) for clients -- they all go to Block or JH, which is okay with me since I don't have to keep up with the foreign worker doings and so forth.

                Maybe some of the Texas/Arizona board-folks have similar problems and will chime in here.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Black Bart

                  Whew, what a comment we dont have any Mexicans. Canadians also pocess same
                  SSN cards.

                  I'm from Arizona hope this isnt bad. I had lots of clients who have these cards. Once I questioned them and had them show me their Immigration Employment autorization permit I gave them EIC. Once word got out that this was my procedure, clients who could not produce permit went elsewhere. These individuals as I prefer to address them are inteligent and they get the message. In our business we need to educate the client, as we are educating ourselfs by using this board.

                  Black Bart I am Mexican American. Born in the U.S.A.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    PC zealots

                    There's one in every crowd -- well, okay then.

                    Originally posted by Kong View Post

                    Whew, what a comment we dont have any Mexicans...
                    They just got here from Mexico, Kong; so that makes them Mexicans to me, but...we can call them Martians if you'd druther. If not, what do you suggest?

                    ...I'm from Arizona hope this isnt bad...
                    No, probably not (I find it's bad policy to generalize). There's an Arizona fellow (Ken) on the board here who seems to a pretty good old boy.

                    ...Black Bart I am Mexican American. Born in the U.S.A.
                    Well, good for you. I guess that makes you better than me in just about every way, doesn't it? Now me, I'm from the Irish Kelleys', but you can call me Mickey if you want, even if I was born in the USA.
                    Last edited by Black Bart; 02-02-2007, 09:45 AM.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Stopped posting

                      This is why I stopped posting on this site. People are touchy and get mean and seems like they have to get the last word in.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Well, shoot, Dennis,

                        Originally posted by Dennis V View Post
                        This is why I stopped posting on this site. People are touchy and get mean and seems like they have to get the last word in.
                        At the risk of stating the obvious, stuff happens and that's the way it is out there in the world. A man of such delicate sensibilities may as well just stay inside his office and bar the door; never to venture outdoors again (or else stick up a big "THANK YOU FOR NOT BEING UNPLEASANT" sign).

                        You're accurate (but not "right") -- people do get touchy and mean; putting it mildly. Yesterday a disruptive drunk carrying a W-2 and no ID came to my office and belligerantly announced "I need money right now -- give me some and I'll be back after while for the rest." He was pretty upset -- declared "I wasted my time" (valuable I'm sure) when I 'splained "we don't do it that way," so I put the police station on speed-dial and moved my .38 to the lap drawer just in case he was "back after while" maybe even more upset (he was on foot, didn't return, and his brother drove up looking for him in the next fifteen minutes).

                        I guess you meant Kong is "touchy" and I "have to get the last word in," but look at the bright side -- actually you got the last word in before you went into seclusion.

                        Comment

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