No social security numbers

[BOB W]

Apples & Oranges.....

..... Right hand and Left hand, you name it > it is all the same. Regardless of how the Federal approaches SS #s, the bottom line will rest with the State. Every state requires SS#s for their wage reporting notification. The only way, on paper, to verify the correct number is the SS card. Electronically, it can be accessed through the internet. I've never done a verification through the internet but I know it can be done.

While your arguments may have a basis in fact, the reality of everyday life rest the onus on the employer for filing correct reports and W-2s and to make every effort to verify I-9s, W-2s and wage reporting factually.

What you are saying is, while you should do everything correct, don't worry about it because you won't be held liable. And, that the liability really rests on the employee.

[Brad Imsdahl]

But you cannot demand that they produce a social security card before they start work, and you cannot demand it during the application process. When they start work you get the number.

Sure I can demand it.

Immigration may let you work with documentation other than a Social Security Card, but the IRS and the Social Security Administration requires workers to have a valid SSN.

If an employee tells me a number but refuses to allow me to see the Social Security Card, all I have to do is say:

“How do I know you are not a liar? Why do you refuse to show me your Social Security Card so that I can verify the spelling of your name and match that with your number? The paperwork I am required to fill out for the government requires that I get those facts straight. What reason do you have for not trusting me with that information? If you don’t trust me, why should I trust you? I can’t hire you if I can’t trust you. Therefore, on the grounds of my suspicion that you might be trying to hide something from me, possibly something illegal, I am not going to hire you.”

[Zee]

I'll defer to Brad's response as far as tax law in this particular situation, where the horse is already out of the barn.

Labor law is another matter.

The employees already worked, and I don't think it's legal to refuse to pay them, even if they tell you flat out that they don't have an SSN. As others have noted, the mistake was allowing them to start work to begin with.

But it's also illegal to demand a social security card. The Form I-9 allows several other forms of documentation. I'm making a very technical and very subtle point here, that is going to become more and more important as time goes by and certain other laws change.

A US passport is sufficient to complete Form I-9. It has a photo, it proves identity, it proves citizenship, and it proves authorization to work in the US.

Your passport doesn't have your SSN on it anywhere.

And here's the part that's probably going to stimulate some debate:

As an employer, you can require the person to provide their social security number, but you cannot require them to provide their social security card.

The requirements of Form I-9 can also be satisfied with a driver's license and a birth certificate--provided that the birth certificate shows you were born in the US. (For those that haven't noticed, driver's licenses don't have your SSN on them either. There's a federal law that makes it illegal for the state to put your SSN on your driver's license.)

I'm not encouraging anyone to hire unlawful immigrants. But you cannot demand that someone produce a social security card if they have other documents that satisfy the requirements. If a US citizen applies for a job, and you offer it to them, and they produce their passport, and you rescind the job offer because they don't have a social security card, you could find yourself in just as much trouble as if you had hired an illegal alien.

You can require the person to provide their social security number. And they can provide it by writing it down or giving it to you verbally (and you write it down). Then you have something to fill in on the W-2.

If the SSN they give you doesn't match their name and birth date, you'll get a notice from the IRS informing you of this. And when you confront the employee, in all probability they'll either correct a genuine clerical error, or they will disappear.

But you cannot demand that they produce a social security card before they start work, and you cannot demand it during the application process. When they start work you get the number.

A social security card is not a form of identification.

Burton M. Koss

If no SS ID is required, what's stopping a group of individuals from all using the same SS # to enhance SS benefits? Illegals are entitled to SS.

[Larmil]

I'll defer to Brad's response as far as tax law in this particular situation, where the horse is already out of the barn.

Labor law is another matter.

As an employer, you can require the person to provide their social security number, but you cannot require them to provide their social security card.

.................................................. .....................

The requirements of Form I-9 can also be satisfied with a driver's license and a birth certificate--provided that the birth certificate shows you were born in the US. (For those that haven't noticed, driver's licenses don't have your SSN on them either. There's a federal law that makes it illegal for the state to put your SSN on your driver's license.)



Burton M. Koss

I can and do require the S.S. card before the hire. Could you cite the law that prohibits states from putting social security numbers on driver's licenses?

[Koss]

Citation

I can and do require the S.S. card before the hire. Could you cite the law that prohibits states from putting social security numbers on driver's licenses?

On December 17, 2004, President Bush signed into law S. 2845, the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-458). On December 7, 2004, the House of Representatives passed S. 2845 by a vote of 336 to 75. The Senate passed S. 2845 by a vote of 89-2 on December 8, 2004. The law provides for reform of the intelligence community, terrorism prevention and prosecution, border security, and international cooperation and coordination.

Included in the legislation are the following provisions of interest to SSA:

Section 7214. Prohibition of the Display of Social Security Account Numbers on Drivers' Licenses or Motor Vehicle Registrations
Prohibits Federal, State, and local governments from displaying SSNs, or any derivative thereof, on drivers' licenses, motor vehicle registrations, or other identification documents issued by State departments of motor vehicles.

http://www.ssa.gov/legislation/legis_bulletin_010705.html

[Koss]

Sure I can demand it.

Immigration may let you work with documentation other than a Social Security Card, but the IRS and the Social Security Administration requires workers to have a valid SSN.

Brad makes a compelling argument. I won't go so far as to say that it is illegal to demand that an employee or applicant show a social security card. For small employers, it may, under some circumstances, be a reasonable requirement.

But here's the reality:

Over the last ten years or so, I have worked for about half a dozen different employers. One was the State of Ohio; another was the State of Illinois. Another was a relatively small business entity that probably had under 200 employees. Two other employers I have worked for were very large corporations. One is publicly held. The other is probably among the 1000 largest privately held companies in the US. Both companies had thousands of employees.

None of my employers ever required me to produce a social security card. In every case, I completed the I-9 by providing either my passport alone, or my driver's license and my birth certificate. (And no, my driver's license does not have my SSN on it.)

I provided the employer with my SSN by writing it on Form W-4. In one or two cases, I had already provided my SSN on an application.

This anecdotal evidence doesn't prove that an employer can't demand a social security card. It does provide very compelling evidence that most employers are not actually doing so.

The two large employers I worked for, as well as the two states, presumably have a massive budget for labor lawyers and HR experts. They have chosen to accept the documentation required by the Form I-9 for a good reason.

Some people don't have a social security card. There is no federal law that requires an individual to get one. Yes, most people get assigned a social security number when they are an infant. But cards get lost or misplaced. The Form I-9 allows other documents for a reason. An employer who demands a social security card is imposing a burden that might be seen as unreasonable.

The facts are:

1. The immigration authorities accept alternate forms of identification.
2. The IRS and the social security administration have a system that enables employers to verify the accuracy of an SSN provided by an employee, even if they have never seen the card.

These two facts taken together make it difficult for any employer to justify imposing requirements that are simply not found anywhere in the law.

I've had this same argument with banks, when opening an account. They use a system for verifying SSNs that is almost identical to the one available to employers. The relatively new laws in the Patriot Act actually require the bank to close the account within a certain period of time if the SSN fails verification and is not corrected.

I've only opened a couple bank accounts over the last few years. But only one bank tried to demand my social security card, and when I escalated the matter to their compliance officer, they caved.

I think the employer can justifiably demand that the employee produce the card if the SSN he provided fails verification.

Burton M. Koss

[Larmil]

Thanks

On December 17, 2004, President Bush signed into law S. 2845, the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-458). On December 7, 2004, the House of Representatives passed S. 2845 by a vote of 336 to 75. The Senate passed S. 2845 by a vote of 89-2 on December 8, 2004. The law provides for reform of the intelligence community, terrorism prevention and prosecution, border security, and international cooperation and coordination.

Included in the legislation are the following provisions of interest to SSA:

Section 7214. Prohibition of the Display of Social Security Account Numbers on Drivers' Licenses or Motor Vehicle Registrations
Prohibits Federal, State, and local governments from displaying SSNs, or any derivative thereof, on drivers' licenses, motor vehicle registrations, or other identification documents issued by State departments of motor vehicles.

http://www.ssa.gov/legislation/legis...in_010705.html

Thanks for the cite. The prohibition should be effective soon.

[Black Bart]

Carded

...Both companies had thousands of employees...None...ever required me to produce a social security card...completed the I-9 by providing either my passport alone, or my driver's license and my birth certificate...This anecdotal evidence doesn't prove that an employer can't demand a social security card. It does provide very compelling evidence that most employers are not actually doing so...

I think it just depends on who you work for. There's a large company here that has a billboard-sized sign in front of their office which states "If you do not have a social security card -- do not apply for a job." On the other hand, most small businesses I've dealt with simply ask the person what their SSN is and write it down (they don't care if they see it or not -- they figure that's the bookkeeper's problem). But you can forget about motel employees packing a passport -- many are decent citizens, but lots (especially at older motels) are drifter-transients with bad teeth and tatoos who'd be lucky to have a valid Blockbuster Video card; and their driver's license (if it exists) has been suspended. For that matter though; how many people even have a passport? I may be in the minority with the motel guys, but I don't. How many of you reading this do?

...The IRS and the social security administration have a system that enables employers to verify the accuracy of an SSN provided by an employee, even if they have never seen the card...

True enough; they do. However, there's one big hitch in that system; which is: you can't use that system to check the number's validity until AFTER you have already hired the person, which, of course defeats the whole purpose of even having the system. Government thinking -- what can you say?

[oceanlovin'ea]

Verification of SS numbers

You can VERIFY a social security number. That means that you have to have a social security number to put into the system to verify if it is correct. If it is not correct, the system only says it is incorrect. It doesn't give you the correct number.

I don't know of any way to check to find out what a persons social security number is, if you don't know it.

Linda F

[Black Bart]

Verfitying numbers - getting numbers

You can VERIFY a social security number. That means that you have to have a social security number to put into the system to verify if it is correct. If it is not correct, the system only says it is incorrect. It doesn't give you the correct number.

I don't know of any way to check to find out what a persons social security number is, if you don't know it.

Linda F

VERIFY: Maybe you can and maybe you can't. If she's already hired the person, yes; if she hasn't, no. The previous posts were talking about doing everything "strictly by the book." -- Here's some excerpts from the "book."

SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER VERIFICATION SERVICE (SSNVS) HANDBOOK:

* SSA will verify SSNs and names solely to ensure the records of current or former employees are correct for the purpose of completing...Form W-2.

* It is illegal to use the service to verify SSNs of potential new hires...

*SSA will advise you when...names and SSNs...do not match...
** This...does not imply...your employee intentionally provided incorrect information...(which, usually, is exactly what they did).
** This...is not a basis for...laying off, suspending, firing... (again, the direct opposite of common sense for somebody giving you a bogus number)

But anyway, you're right -- you can't get numbers from the government legally. Too, it's an uphill battle since short-handed motel managers want to hire any worker and paper problems are far down the list.

You just have to press quite hard to get those numbers; dangling sticks (IRS will "hang" you) and carrots (IRS will "not bother you") before her. Make it as simple as possible -- if they do it once and see it's not that much trouble, they will usually keep it up.