Amish in PA.

[fliszt]

Bees

here here!

[Bird Legs]

No Social Security No.

The reason I posted the original question is because I have acquired a client, for audit.
Couple, married, 2 children. All living together.
Husband, works, and he prepares and files the tax return. Filing status, head of house-
hold claiming the 2 children as dependents.
When I questioned him about this, his response is, " The wife does not have a
social security no. based on her religious beliefs."
He said he called the IRS several years ago and asked them what marital status
he should use on the return and was told to use HOH.
The wifes' name is nowhere on the tax return.
Now the auditor says that the marital status should be Married filing separately
and he is entitled to deduct only 1/2 of the itemized deductions on Sched. A.
The other 1/2 belongs to the wife, if she were to file.
The question I have is can a person file a tax return without having a SSN or TIN?
The reason for mentioning the Amish was not the diminish nor ridicule their belief system
nor lifestyle. Just the opposite is true. I have all respect in the world for them.
But I felt that maybe they did not have SSN and possibly still filed tax returns. And
was trying to apply this to my case.

[Bees Knees]

TTB, page 3-13, “A married individual can be considered unmarried for HOH purposes if all of the following apply:
- Taxpayer lived apart from his or her spouse for the last six months of the year…”


There is no exception for a spouse who does not have a SSN. The TIN is designed for such an occasion. The IRS telling your client to file as HOH is wrong advice. That is why you never call IRS to ask tax questions, as you have a 50% chance they will tell you the wrong answer.

[sea-tax]

Maybe we could just drive to Pennsylvania and sign up -- shouldn't be too many people in line ahead of us for that spartan life-style. I don't know if you have to be German or not in order to join up (if so, maybe Gabriele would give us a good reference). John of PA might know something about it -- seems like he posted something about them at one time.

Still, I think there's a catch. As I understand it, you have be conscientiously opposed to receiving the benefits as well as paying the tax. Just a guess, but I'm betting you're a tad more of an economic objector (so am I) to the taxpaying, while having no objections of any sort about the receiving benefits part of the deal. Is that a fair statement (as the lawyers like to put it)?

Actually my southern friend I am not an economic objector. I infact would love and cherish the opportunity to be able to not pay ss and medicare and then face the consequences of my actions. See BB I feel that I can manage my own money and retirement better than uncle sam.

So yes if your asking I would prefer that ss be privatized or at least give those who are willing the opportunity to opt out. Again I realize this is a PIPE Dream but can't a latte drinking , tree hugger dream!

[HBurkholder]

In response to Bees Knees. Every time there is a tax break given to some class of taxpayer on any level there are folks who will find some loophole to abuse the system. Until SS# were required for dependants there were folks claiming Fido and Scratch. Businesses are operated under church names as non-profits. etc. etc.

Does it seem right that some religiuos groups are exempt from certain taxes????
These same folks pay local school taxes to educate their children but then operate their own schools at their own expense. etc. etc. They also DO pay Federal, state,and local income taxes.

As to groups being opposed to havng SS numbers, I have heard that here are some small fringe groups that take this position but I can not verify that

[Bees Knees]

Does it seem right that some religiuos groups are exempt from certain taxes????
These same folks pay local school taxes to educate their children but then operate their own schools at their own expense. etc. etc. They also DO pay Federal, state,and local income taxes.

Many people for non-religious reasons pay to have their kids attend private school, and yet they continue to be subject to taxes that pay for public school. I paid for my own private college tuition. Should I ask for a rebate on the taxes I paid to help send kids to the University of Minnesota?

What about those religiously opposed to the war in Iraq. Should we give them a 23% rebate on the portion of their income tax used for the military?

Once you start down a slippery slope, it becomes more and more difficult to stop.

[veritas]

I was told recently that an individual exempted out of ss. His wife died and he remarried and he is now collecting ss since his new spouse paid in. Is this possible? Anybody?

[Unregistered]

Bees, as usual, you are just so full of Bees Wax. Congress has a long history of favoring religious groups...blah blah blah... or whatever it was you said. You HAVE heard of separation of church and state. No need to reply. I know that once this topic gets too hot for you to handle, you'll just delete the entire thread.

[Bees Knees]

Bees, as usual, you are just so full of Bees Wax. Congress has a long history of favoring religious groups...blah blah blah... or whatever it was you said. You HAVE heard of separation of church and state. No need to reply. I know that once this topic gets too hot for you to handle, you'll just delete the entire thread.

And yet, it is funny how you just can’t keep yourself away from this message board…and posting messages at that.

My my my…What’s the matter? Things too dull over on your board today? You feelin’ the need to see what real tax discussions are like?

[Unregistered]

And yet, it is funny how you just can’t keep yourself away from this message board…and posting messages at that.

My my my…What’s the matter? Things too dull over on your board today? You feelin’ the need to see what real tax discussions are like?

Yes, the other boards are just so dull. This board is fun! The tax discussions are interesting here, and the social discussions even more so. This is a compliment to you.

[Bees Knees]

Yes, the other boards are just so dull. This board is fun! The tax discussions are interesting here, and the social discussions even more so. This is a compliment to you.

Thanks for the compliment. Want to buy a book?

[Black Bart]

Opting out of SS

I am not an economic objector...would love...to...not pay ss...and ...face the consequences...I feel that I can manage my own money and retirement better than uncle sam.

I would prefer that ss be privatized or...give...opportunity to opt out.

I wonder if this could be used as the basis for using forms 4361/4029 and if it's ever been argued in court? Although sea-tax doesn't have a religious reason for his objection, nevertheless, it's a conscientious objection of sorts (he's willing to forego SS benefits and feels he could handle his own retirement money better than SSA does -- which is surely true since he's a professional investor and the government is so generally inept at it).

On the other hand, there must be some holes in my theory, because the "opting out" and "private investing" program was exactly the same thing President Bush was trying to get passed into law some months ago.

[Joe Btfsplk]

Amish

As a member of a group (Mennonite) that is exempt from from SE tax perhaps I can explain.
". For the Amish it is no electricity, no cars, etc. Other groups have to a large extent accepted modern technology

=====
No electricity means NO computers, so any Amish tax preparer would have to do them manually. He could forget about schedule SE, so that would be one less form to deal with.

If he used an adding machine, it would have to be non-electric.

Paying the social securiy tax might be better than the result of changing your religion to save the money.

[sea-tax]

I wonder if this could be used as the basis for using forms 4361/4029 and if it's ever been argued in court? Although sea-tax doesn't have a religious reason for his objection, nevertheless, it's a conscientious objection of sorts (he's willing to forego SS benefits and feels he could handle his own retirement money better than SSA does -- which is surely true since he's a professional investor and the government is so generally inept at it).

On the other hand, there must be some holes in my theory, because the "opting out" and "private investing" program was exactly the same thing President Bush was trying to get passed into law some months ago.

Actually BB I would take it one step further than good ole W. I think he wanted to let people do 50% SS and 50% private. I say let us do 100% private. I know I know I am going to get screamed at by all you old folks( uh uh I mean seasoned citizens).

The Fact is that for those of us willing to take on the risk and responsibilty of self management why should we not be allowed. I would even say I would be willing to sign a statement that said I get no SS benefits and would be willing to forgo what benefits I have accrued to this point. The fact is for the educated and savy investor it is not possible for a gov't entity to manage money more effectively than you. Now Off of my pulpit good day!

[jainen]

outside the system

>>those of us willing to take on the risk<<

Apparently you are missing the "social" part of Social Security. Like all insurance programs, the idea is to spread the risk over a large population. That way, no one sector can collapse in a way that would bring down all sectors. It is simply a protective minimum--you are perfectly free to seek additional security outside the system.