Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Bigger = Better

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Bigger = Better

    This is an outgrowth of the "Why switch from QF" thread, but enough of a separate discussion that it should warrant its own thread.

    The plot involves one well-financed corporate entity fresh from entering the succinct tax publication industry. In the other corner, the upstart company who had its cheese taken away when the gargantuan entered the scene. The question from some appears to be "Why take a chance? Place your money on the big company with big resources and don't risk a Non-delivery from a new company with undisclosed and unproven capital?" The old "Bigger is Better" argument.

    Before we rhapsodically swoon to the siren song of the corporate interest, let's consider some of the "Bigger is Better" scenarios in your home town.

    1. Sizzlin' Sirloin versus "XYZ Steakhouse." This is a misnomer for your town, perhaps, but every town has a mom-and-pop steakhouse run by Americans of Greek, Italian, French, Oriental, or maybe just American descent. Who has the better steak? You also walk through a processing line to pay the cashier at one place, and sit down to service at another.

    2. General Motors Service Department versus your Local Mechanic. The Service Department has tried to run the Locals out of business with things like OBD-II, purchasing power, and the like (a separate discussion in itself). You go to the GM Service Department, who has maybe one guy who really knows your Buick. But instead, you get a 19-year old who hooks your engine up to a machine, and reads a print-out. He reads it just like McGuffie's Reader - right down the list, and chooses his diagnosis from 3-4 possibilities. Over the next two weeks, you get all these possibilities performed on your Buick, and a bill for $1000. GM has met its goal - i.e. profit.

    Then you give up and take your car to the local mechanic who listens and tells you, "It sounds like the pulley motor to me," and proceeds to fix your car for $250. The mechanic has met his goal - service plus profit.

    3. AOL versus your local ISP. No doubt, AOL has had all the resources for years. But you call them, and the technician from India walks you through the steps of setting up a new instance of client on your PC rather than really solving the problem that was created to begin with. Your local ISP is fighting for his life to get upgraded equipment from BellSouth, SWB, or Verizon (depending on where you live), but is furnishing better service for 35% less.



    Does Bigger equate to Better? How about another example:

    4. In 1979, Bill Gates offerred to sell Microsoft to IBM for $2 million. They laughed at him. In 1986, IBM offerred to buy Microsoft for $50 million, and threatened to run him out of business if he didn't sell. He laughed at them.

    Bad example, though. There are always rags-to-riches stories with geniuses like Gates, but I said it would have to be in your home town, right?

    5. Jackson-Hewitt versus YOUR TAX PRACTICE. And I guess the same thing could be said about HRB, but at least they have quality control in place which keeps sloppy returns from getting out into the public, and SOME knowledgeable tax preparers. No doubt, the big companies have resources -- they are staples in the tax preparation business, have an office on the corner in every town, can write a customer for (part of) his tax return on the spot, and convince people via TV commercials that they are the ultimate authority on taxes.

    We have some HRB people who post, and I almost must apologize to Gary Marmer who is very sharp and hardly your typical HRB preparer. But over the years, I have saved clients thousands and thousands of dollars who have come to me from HRB. I have dozens of former HRB customers, and they have a few of mine -- namely those who can't wait 10 days for their refund, and are enamored by the resources of a company who can write them a check instantly.

    A couple friends who are managers at Block tell me privately they do NOT want their people tied up for hours or days on such things as Partnerships, S Corps, Estates, etc. and that their practice is geared to short forms so they can turn the money.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Does Bigger = Better? Well, in all honesty, sometimes they do. Their enhanced purchasing power runs the smaller local companies out of business, so you see more Chain stores, Fast Food restaurants, etc. Do you get the same service that you used to get out of the corner market? I doubt there is ANY among the readers who will say they do.

    Will Bigger run the new TTB out of business? Those of you who have compared prices have seen QF selling for lower prices than it has in years. What is their purpose for lowering their price? Think about it. They either want to use their resources to run competitors out of business, or they think they will make tons of money by selling you five of their books when only one or two from TTB will suffice.

    Yes, the verdict has not yet been returned on this saga. I'm anxious to see how this unfolds by next April, as the ordering season is now full upon us.

    Thanks for listening. Ron Jordan, Manchester TN

    #2
    Yes(bigger vs better)

    the big companies may be o.k. but I have found out that you usually give up good service that you get from smaller companies. I worked at HRB for 10 yrs before stateing my own practice.When you work on a commission the goal is to do as many returns as possible. I started out in 1995 with 50 clients and now had around 400.I just try to provide a personal service(listen to my clients talk about their problems,grandkids,aches & pains,etc.) and try to provide a reasonable price.I have found the service,which is hard to find now days and a reasonable price are what most people are looking for and the big tax companies usually don't provide these.
    I also know about the mom & pop businesses getting displaced as the area where I live was at one time thriving and everyone in town came to our area to shop.Well Wal-mart ( and I don't have anything against them as I shop there too) came in,built a big super store and the other businesses closed or moved to the other side of town. Now if your want anything other than what Wal-Mart has you drive to the other side of town,Just an example of big business taking over, so sometime bigger is not better

    Comment


      #3
      Bigger can be better

      I will share what has caused my treading carefully with small companies in the tax industry (I trust THE TAX BOOK is an exception and will take good care of us). Going back a few years there were the following in the tax prep software industry. Pencil Pushers, The Tax Partners by BEST, MIcor vision (Accountants World) Tax Relief, Tax Resources. These were small companies who had a good product and the users loved the software. They gave up, leaving thier customers hanging and having to learn a new product when thier recources could not keep us with the demands of Windows, networking, etc. Tax preparers who were with the big companies (Turbo Tax, CCH Pro Fx, Lacerte) still have the product and have enjoyed the consistency of long-term developement of the product. Perhaps this analogy if unfair, but it has left me skeptical and walking on egg shells with new companies.

      Comment


        #4
        Pencil Pushers tax software was acquired by CCH. They didn't just go away. CCH put them out of business by paying them off.

        Comment


          #5
          Pencil Pushers

          Thank you Bees Knees for your thoughts here. To me, the fact that Pencil Pushers "sold out" for the money; was an abandoning of the customers they serve, unless there was a written agreement that CCH would continue the product. It's ashame and I feel for what the Pencil Pushers users had to go through. I used to use Tax Resources, and they were sold out to Lacerte. Tax Resources meant well, but they just could not keep up with, or finance the transition from DOS to Windows. I use Lacerte and was very nervous when Intuit bought out Lacerte, but so far, so good. Again this is a risk associated with small companies. I'am not suggesting this applies to tax reference books, but I do remain cautious for a while anyway.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by John of PA
            Thank you Bees Knees for your thoughts here. To me, the fact that Pencil Pushers "sold out" for the money; was an abandoning of the customers they serve, unless there was a written agreement that CCH would continue the product.

            So its OK to sell out if the big company doesn’t kill the product, like Quickfinder selling out to Thomson? But its not OK to sell out if the big company kills it? Like CCH did to Pencil Pushers?

            Just want to establish the rules as to the proper way to “sell out.”

            Comment


              #7
              Ron:

              Thanks for the good words about me. There are many excellent tax professionals at HRB, and of course, there are many that aren't. This is true in any field. When I was working in physics, there were some brilliant physicists, and some not so bright.

              Gary Marmer

              Comment


                #8
                Bigger - Better - Depends on Factors

                1. Sizzlin' Sirloin versus "XYZ Steakhouse." This is a misnomer for your town, perhaps, but every town has a mom-and-pop steakhouse run by Americans of Greek, Italian, French, Oriental, or maybe just American descent. Who has the better steak? You also walk through a processing line to pay the cashier at one place, and sit down to service at another.

                What is your definition of just American descent? Do you mean Anglo-Saxons or the real Native Americans (Indians as the not so smart Columbus the Italian, called them). I know of steakhouses run by individuals from Africans, Iranian, Russian, Czech & on & on descents (I think they are all Americans)

                2. General Motors Service Department versus your Local Mechanic. The Service Department has tried to run the Locals out of business with things like OBD-II, purchasing power, and the like (a separate discussion in itself). You go to the GM Service Department, who has maybe one guy who really knows your Buick. But instead, you get a 19-year old who hooks your engine up to a machine, and reads a print-out. He reads it just like McGuffie's Reader - right down the list, and chooses his diagnosis from 3-4 possibilities. Over the next two weeks, you get all these possibilities performed on your Buick, and a bill for $1000. GM has met its goal - i.e. profit.

                Then you give up and take your car to the local mechanic who listens and tells you, "It sounds like the pulley motor to me," and proceeds to fix your car for $250. The mechanic has met his goal - service plus profit.

                Really no comment here -- I have had good & bad experience at both types of auto-mechanics.

                3. AOL versus your local ISP. No doubt, AOL has had all the resources for years. But you call them, and the technician from India walks you through the steps of setting up a new instance of client on your PC rather than really solving the problem that was created to begin with. Your local ISP is fighting for his life to get upgraded equipment from BellSouth, SWB, or Verizon (depending on where you live), but is furnishing better service for 35% less.

                The local ISP in my hometown sold out for big bucks to some out of town company & then disappeared -- so in this instance his local loyal customers were left hanging.

                Does Bigger equate to Better? How about another example:

                4. In 1979, Bill Gates offerred to sell Microsoft to IBM for $2 million. They laughed at him. In 1986, IBM offerred to buy Microsoft for $50 million, and threatened to run him out of business if he didn't sell. He laughed at them.

                Bad example, though. There are always rags-to-riches stories with geniuses like Gates, but I said it would have to be in your home town, right?

                I think the same is true of the formation of now famous companies/brands such as Wendys, Jackson Hewitt (your next target), Hampton Inn etc.

                5. Jackson-Hewitt versus YOUR TAX PRACTICE. And I guess the same thing could be said about HRB, but at least they have quality control in place which keeps sloppy returns from getting out into the public, and SOME knowledgeable tax preparers. No doubt, the big companies have resources -- they are staples in the tax preparation business, have an office on the corner in every town, can write a customer for (part of) his tax return on the spot, and convince people via TV commercials that they are the ultimate authority on taxes.

                We have some HRB people who post, and I almost must apologize to Gary Marmer who is very sharp and hardly your typical HRB preparer. But over the years, I have saved clients thousands and thousands of dollars who have come to me from HRB. I have dozens of former HRB customers, and they have a few of mine -- namely those who can't wait 10 days for their refund, and are enamored by the resources of a company who can write them a check instantly.

                A couple friends who are managers at Block tell me privately they do NOT want their people tied up for hours or days on such things as Partnerships, S Corps, Estates, etc. and that their practice is geared to short forms so they can turn the money.

                For your information - Not all Jacskon Hewitt (I don't know much about HRB - It is my understanding that most of the HRB offices in lareger metropolitan areas are run by HRB Corporate) offices are run the way you describe - some perform all of the services (partnerships, S-corps etc) you describe, some don't. Some are owned & operated by EAs, & CPAs, & some by investors or saavy business people - who know how to watch the bottom line.

                In the many years that I have been involved in this business -- I have seen sloppy work (done by hand or computer) by independent practitioners, some of who also get the clients in & out the door for quick buck & turnaround. It is very difficult to get in touch with most during the off-season.

                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Does Bigger = Better? Well, in all honesty, sometimes they do. Their enhanced purchasing power runs the smaller local companies out of business, so you see more Chain stores, Fast Food restaurants, etc. Do you get the same service that you used to get out of the corner market? I doubt there is ANY among the readers who will say they do.

                Will Bigger run the new TTB out of business? Those of you who have compared prices have seen QF selling for lower prices than it has in years. What is their purpose for lowering their price? Think about it. They either want to use their resources to run competitors out of business, or they think they will make tons of money by selling you five of their books when only one or two from TTB will suffice.

                Yes, the verdict has not yet been returned on this saga. I'm anxious to see how this unfolds by next April, as the ordering season is now full upon us.

                Thanks for listening. Ron Jordan, Manchester TN[/QUOTE]

                If you live in the ocean -- the bigger fish almost always eat the smaller fish. If you live in the jungle -- the faster & powerful lions & tigers almost always kill & eat the slower & less powerful animals (not necessarily smaller).

                In the human world we all do the same thing -- some do it through legal channels, some don't.

                My experience with this message board has been very short but sweet. I was introduced to this site through a link from NAEA. Let us all work to keep this message board the best ever for the practicing community - without finger pointing.

                In conclusion -- sometimes bigger is better & sometimes it is not, it just depends on where you live (ocean/jungle) or which side of the table you are on. There good apples & bad apples in every lot.

                Comment


                  #9
                  You should learn how to do quotes, so we know when it is you talking and when you are trying to quote somebody else, like this.

                  Originally posted by Unregistered
                  In conclusion -- sometimes bigger is better & sometimes it is not, it just depends on where you live (ocean/jungle) or which side of the table you are on. There good apples & bad apples in every lot.
                  I agree 100%. There is good and bad accross the board.

                  People do like to make generalizations about big business vs. small business. However, some of us have experience working for a small company that gets sold to a big company. That experience sheds a whole new perspective on the big guy vs. the little guy debate.

                  BTW, anyone ever heard of foreign outsourcing of tax preparation? Big tax prep firms sending their tax work over to India to have them processed by cheap labor. The big guys think that is something we all will eventually have to deal with. Interesting article at

                  written by Jim Reeves, Senior Vice President, Product Development for Practitioners Publishing Company (PPC) in Fort Worth, Texas. Hows that for the big company approach vs. the small independent tax preparer approach?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Gary
                    Ron:

                    Thanks for the good words about me. There are many excellent tax professionals at HRB, and of course, there are many that aren't. This is true in any field. When I was working in physics, there were some brilliant physicists, and some not so bright.
                    Gary, the overwhelming majority of "bad" preparers for HRB that I have encountered have been in franchise-owned operations, mostly in small towns. As you know, some of them begin filling out returns with a minimum of training. Most of the Block-owned facilities fill out a quality return, but lack experience in dealing with rental property, schedule Fs, AMT, and the like. Usually in the Block-owned facilities, there are a couple of well-experienced folks who are sharp, and others who are doing a very good job and getting good experience.

                    The Block review and quality control program does not let bad and sloppy returns out of the office, like those I've seen prepared by Attorneys and JH. The Block Premiere concept may eventually provide competition in the areas of Corporations, Partnerships, Trusts, TaxExempts, etc., but HRB will have to pay you folks enough to keep you from going out on your own. I believe the foregoing to be a fair assessment of my competitors at HRB, and still insist that their advantage in size and resources does not constitute better service for customers than most of us who run a locally-owned tax service.

                    Best wishes - Ron J.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Yes OK to sell out

                      Yes Bees Knees, thats exactly what I'am saying. It's OK to sell out, if the new company has some respect for the customers, continues a good product and does not run the division "by the numbers" and kill the product (OK expamples include: Intuit buying Lacerte; Thompson buying Quickfinder, so far). And it is not OK to sell out to someone where there's a risk to kill the product; though a business owner has a total legal right to do so; the business owner should be honest about their mission and admit, it's not to serve the customers, but it's to make as much money they can at the customers expense. Example of not OK sell outs; any company who buys a competitor and kills it. I wish THE TAX BOOK, well, I'm routing for them, I support them (along with Quickfinder) the feel there plenty of room for both products if they both servie thier customers well. As I have stated in other postings, I feel both products will compliment each other. Both the big company, and the competing small company can be the good guy. All I'am saying is among the many factors that will determine the success of each company, the need for financial resources (to whatever extent, if at all that applies here) is an advantage of the larger company; just one factor to consider; thats all I'am saying.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Sell Out

                        John,

                        I respect you so much as I do others that post on both of these boards,
                        but I do feel that Lacerte or Intuit and possibly Qf/Thomson did sell out.

                        I switched from CCH to Lacerte in 1996 because of Big Corp and $$. The reason, they were going to take care of the bread and butter tax preparers, not raise fees but extend more quality service. Result after 6 years with Lacerte and then Intuit bought them out around 2000 (?), less service, product was still good, tech support for two years was awful, but the fees escalated so that those of us that are mid-range could no longer afford it. It just became non cost effective!

                        Yes, I tried to raise prices to my clients to overcome, but could never quite catch up. So what was Lacerte's answer when I decided to change, try Pro Series or Turbo Tax, "that might suit your needs better". No options. Well the Pro Series was almost as expensive as LaCerte by the time I factored all in, and we all know pretty much what we think about Turbo Tax.

                        I see a similar pattern with other vendors on buyouts or mergers of Small Companies. Unfortunately for me Thomson bought out 3 different vendors that I have subscription services with. QF and 2 others, so you can understand my concern. My QF fees increased dramatically enough in 2004 that I am taking a look, the other vendor Thomson bought out, I totally discontinued and found a comparable replacement for half the cost. The third vendor they bought out I am reserving judgment on but actively seeking a comparable.

                        Over the years we have all become comfortable with our software, our seminar speakers (yes Thomson bought out Gear UP) and other software or education that we depend on. That is not always bad, and we should receive more, but it seems that more becomes more $$$ out of our pockets instead of technical material and support.

                        Because I am a mid range smaller practice, I have to be concerned with costs and service and I am eager to support people that can offer a quality product and service at a reasonable amount. The people offering the product or service obviously have to make a profit, and should make a profit, but not necessarily at the expense of the smaller practitioner.

                        Sandy

                        Comment


                          #13
                          One Final Thought

                          on this thread, and then I'm going to move on.

                          Some of you thought me to be naive enough to believe the big fish don't swallow the little fish. They do. But is the fisherman any better off?

                          Already we have heard of big software companies buying out the small tax software companies. Almost without exception, we've heard that either i)the price goes up, or
                          ii)service goes down. Sometimes both.

                          Maybe you remember your hometown bank - First Peoples Bank of Farmtown. Do you remember when they were bought out by Corporate Meganational Bank? What did they tell you? Can you remember?

                          "We came to Farmtown because we wanted to serve YOU! More services! Bigger and more accurate computers! Multi-state trained Bank Managers! Better to serve you with, my dear!"

                          They forgot to mention: Revenue-driven service charges and fees. Loan approval not in Farmville but Megalopolis. No investment in the local community but instead suck the last nickel out of Farmville. Impersonal managers and tellers who don't stick around very long, some of them even Yankees!

                          Yes, the big fish DO swallow the little fish. Yes, the big fish are better off. But how much better off are YOU if you are the customer???

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by S T
                            Over the years we have all become comfortable with our software, our seminar speakers (yes Thomson bought out Gear UP) and other software or education that we depend on. That is not always bad, and we should receive more, but it seems that more becomes more $$$ out of our pockets instead of technical material and support.
                            I attended the Gear Up Business Entities Seminar a month ago. The one speaker who had been with Gear Up for years was good, but the other new guy they had just hired was terrible. Neither covered the new tax laws very well. Everyone was waiting for the new stuff. I noticed in the lobby during breaks a buzz going on about how people felt the seminar wasn’t going too good. Someone said MAPA (our state sponsor) was signed to a commitment with Gear Up, but once that was up they were going to switch to Bob Jennings. One of the attendees mentioned that Thomson was asking Gear Up Speakers to give up their tax practices so that they could do more seminars. It was also interesting to note that the Gear Up manual was full of PPC Deskbook information and stuff from the Quickfinder newsletter, as apparently their speakers no longer supplied all of the information for their manuals. I decided I’m going to fly to Chicago to catch a Jennings Seminar, rather than waste my money going to St Cloud (20 minutes from my house) for Gear Up’s 1040 Seminar. I had always been satisfied with Gear Up, until this year.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Gear Up Speakers

                              Oh Bees, I am so sorry to hear about the disappointing seminar put on by the New Gear Up. They have always had some of the best speakers. Great material and you left energized. I guess I am glad I couldn't attend this year as it sounds like I would have been disappointed and spent money for naught!

                              Does it seem feasible that a speaker can present a seminar and not actually be involved in THAT business, hands on? Maybe 1% could pull it off but I would think they would have to be a dynamite personality and have very great material!!!

                              That was always the plus for the prior speakers of Gear Up! They were "hands on" practioners and they could tell the stories of the events that they encountered which made it real for those of us sitting in the audience!

                              Sandy

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X