CAUGHT IN A $5k SCAM for a $1m SCENARIO

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  • TAXNJ
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2007
    • 2106

    #1

    CAUGHT IN A $5k SCAM for a $1m SCENARIO

    Where to deduct the loss on return if possible (not a personal casualty loss)?
    • Client informed that he will win $1m if he sends $5k to a specific address bank
    • Client provides investment account info to scammer and scammer withdrawals the $5k from client’s account based on client giving private personal account info
    • Client will be reporting the $5k as a Gross Distribution and is Taxable upon receiving form 1099-R from Investment account company
    • Client never hears from scammer again (no $1m)
    • Police report filed. Police tell client will probably never see the money again and doubts the prosecutor office will take the complaint because of the dollar amount
    • Client filing with homeowners insurance hoping for some type of recovery.
    Last edited by TAXNJ; 02-28-2020, 03:45 PM.
    Always cite your source for support to defend your opinion
  • Lion
    Senior Member
    • Jun 2005
    • 4698

    #2
    Tell him to close that account immediately! His bank can provide him with the paperwork to sign to transfer his balance to a new account. The scammer could steal more if that account remains open.

    Comment

    • TAXNJ
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2007
      • 2106

      #3
      Originally posted by Lion
      Tell him to close that account immediately! His bank can provide him with the paperwork to sign to transfer his balance to a new account. The scammer could steal more if that account remains open.
      Yes, client is aware of that but the question is "Where to deduct the loss on return if possible (not a personal casualty loss)?"
      Always cite your source for support to defend your opinion

      Comment

      • spanel
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2008
        • 845

        #4
        Originally posted by TAXNJ

        Yes, client is aware of that but the question is "Where to deduct the loss on return if possible (not a personal casualty loss)?"
        Why would it not be a casualty loss? and therefor not deductable.

        Chris

        Comment

        • Burke
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2008
          • 7068

          #5
          Are you trying to say it is a business loss? What type of account were the funds taken out of? From your OP, Item #3, it appears it came out of some type of retirement account. This looks like a personal loss, and while it used to be deductible as a personal theft loss, that was thrown out for years after 2018. However, see Instructions for Form 4684, Section B, and the related IRS bulletins listed on Page 6, for certain Ponzi-type schemes. (Not deductible if covered by insurance.)
          Last edited by Burke; 02-28-2020, 04:34 PM.

          Comment

          • TAXNJ
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2007
            • 2106

            #6
            Originally posted by spanel

            Why would it not be a casualty loss? and therefor not deductable.

            Chris
            If understanding your reply when the original post states "not a personal casualty loss".

            To be clearer meaning it is not "personal" property rather "investment property" and the property was used in a "Passive Activity.
            Always cite your source for support to defend your opinion

            Comment

            • TAXNJ
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2007
              • 2106

              #7
              Originally posted by Burke
              Are you trying to say it is a business loss? What type of account were the funds taken out of? From your OP, Item #3, it appears it came out of some type of retirement account. This is a personal loss, and while it used to be deductible as a personal theft loss, that was thrown out for years after 2018.
              Yes, it was taken out of their IRA account and is being reported by their Investment firm as a taxable "Normal" Distribution (code 7). Was trying to see if it would be applicable as
              "investment property" and the property was used in a "Passive Activity."

              Trying to figure if there is some possible relief to this scam
              Always cite your source for support to defend your opinion

              Comment

              • Burke
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2008
                • 7068

                #8
                I updated the post you quoted. See if that addl info directs you to the right place.

                Comment

                • ATSMAN
                  Senior Member
                  • Jul 2013
                  • 2415

                  #9
                  What am I missing here? This is a qualified account, hence the 1099-R reporting, right??

                  To get money out of a qualified account that generates a 1099-R, paperwork must be signed including disclosures. How did that work in this instance. What did the taxpayer give the crook, signed paperwork? If the taxpayer is married spousal consent is required?

                  Something does not add right?
                  Taxes after all are the dues that we pay for the privileges of membership in an organized society. - FDR

                  Comment

                  • Rapid Robert
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2015
                    • 1981

                    #10
                    The theft didn't happen until the scammer received the taxpayer's cash, post withdrawal. Cash is personal use property, I don't see how it can be investment use since it cannot be held for potential gain.
                    "You said it, they'll never know the difference. Come on, we'll paint our way out!" - Moe Howard
                    "That's enough! When you didn't know what you were talking about, you really had something! [to Curly]" -Moe Howard

                    Comment

                    • TAXNJ
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2007
                      • 2106

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Rapid Robert
                      The theft didn't happen until the scammer received the taxpayer's cash, post withdrawal. Cash is personal use property, I don't see how it can be investment use since it cannot be held for potential gain.
                      You raise a good point if the IRS considers “Cash is personal use property”. This would probably settle this scenario if you can share where in the code you found that definition. Thanks in advance.
                      Always cite your source for support to defend your opinion

                      Comment

                      • TAXNJ
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2007
                        • 2106

                        #12
                        Originally posted by ATSMAN
                        What am I missing here? This is a qualified account, hence the 1099-R reporting, right??

                        To get money out of a qualified account that generates a 1099-R, paperwork must be signed including disclosures. How did that work in this instance. What did the taxpayer give the crook, signed paperwork? If the taxpayer is married spousal consent is required?

                        Something does not add right?
                        Scams are bad news. This older client gave private investment account info to scammer who according to client went into client’s investment account and had it electronically withdrawn.

                        Sounds incredible but to describe the complete story would be involved. Also, waiting for police report.

                        Bottom line is this older client seems to have falling into the scams the IRS warns people about.

                        Thanks for the questions. Do you have a response to the OP question?
                        Always cite your source for support to defend your opinion

                        Comment

                        • Lion
                          Senior Member
                          • Jun 2005
                          • 4698

                          #13
                          It was a retirement account, a personal account, reporting ordinary income. Why do you think it is deductible?

                          Comment

                          • Gene V
                            Senior Member
                            • Jun 2005
                            • 1057

                            #14
                            See if anything on IRS website helps https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/help-for-victims-of-ponzi-investment-schemes

                            Comment

                            • TAXNJ
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2007
                              • 2106

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Burke
                              …. However, see Instructions for Form 4684, Section B, and the related IRS bulletins listed on Page 6, for certain Ponzi-type schemes. (Not deductible if covered by insurance.)
                              and

                              Originally posted by Gene V


                              Thanks to both of you. Have considered this “safe-harbor rule” . As you know from this “safe-harbor rule”, will look into if #2 may apply because #1 & #3 would not because scammer has not be caught.
                              The amount lost to scams is incredible. We see more people fall victim especially Seniors losing more than 5k.


                              The special “safe-harbor rule” under which it will automatically accept Ponzi-type theft losses. Under this rule, the IRS will deem the loss to be the result of theft if: (1) the scheme’s promoter was charged under state or federal law with fraud, embezzlement, or a similar crime; or (2) the promoter was the subject of a state or federal criminal complaint alleging commission of such a crime, and (3) either there was some evidence of an admission of guilt by the promoter or a trustee was appointed to freeze the assets of the scheme.




                              Always cite your source for support to defend your opinion

                              Comment

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