Qualifying widow

[New York Enrolled Agent]

I think Gene V is right. her son is over 19-24 years old, so he is a qualifying relative and earned more than $4150. I should have tried the dependency test first before even going to qualifying widow filing status. thank you all for your help it helped me clear my head by reading responses.

With all due respect, Gene V. is not correct. Did you read all the posts in this thread?

[taxmom34]

new York enrolled agent: in my original post I asked if there was a limit of son's age, my conclusion is that his age does not qualify him as a QC to be anyone's dependent. and to be QR he made more than $4150 so he didn't qualify to be a dependent there either. no dependent to qualified widow. where am I wrong?

[jmcdtax]

If you read the 1040 Instructions for 2018 page 17 from IRS.gov:
Qualifying Widow(er)
You can check the “Qualifying widow(
er)” box at the top of Form 1040 and
use joint return tax rates for 2018 if all
of the following apply.
Need more information or forms? Visit IRS.gov. -16-
1. Your spouse died in 2016 or 2017
and you didn't remarry before the end of
2018.
2. You have a child or stepchild (not
a foster child) whom you can claim as a
dependent or could claim as a dependent
except that, for 2018:
a. The child had gross income of
$4,150 or more,
b. The child filed a joint return, or
c. You could be claimed as a dependent
on someone else’s return.
If the child isn’t claimed as your dependent,
enter the child’s name in the
entry space at the far right of the filing
status checkboxes (next to “Qualifying
widow(er)”). If you don’t enter the
name, it will take us longer to process
your return.
3. This child lived in your home for
all of 2018. If the child didn't live with
you for the required time, see Exception
to time lived with you, later.
4. You paid over half the cost of
keeping up your home.
5. You could have filed a joint return
with your spouse the year he or she
died, even if you didn't actually do so.

Yes, the son made more than $4150 but the exception 2a above seems to say he can make whatever. and see the statement after 2c. She provided more than half the support (60,000 vs. 20,000) and he lived with all year. She can claim QW and he can file his own tax return and claim himself.

[Gene V]

"Yes, the son made more than $4150 but the exception 2a above seems to say he can make whatever. and see the statement after 2c. She provided more than half the support (60,000 vs. 20,000) and he lived with all year. She can claim QW and he can file his own tax return and claim himself"

As I read this from page 17, they are talking about a child--see page 21 for definition of qualify child----In taxmom34 post--the son is 27 years old--qualify relative not child.

[New York Enrolled Agent]

new York enrolled agent: in my original post I asked if there was a limit of son's age, my conclusion is that his age does not qualify him as a QC to be anyone's dependent. and to be QR he made more than $4150 so he didn't qualify to be a dependent there either. no dependent to qualified widow. where am I wrong?

In the "old" days, the filing status was titled (despite the actual language in §2 of the IRC) as Qualifying Widow with Dependent Child. The Working Families Tax Relief Act of 2004 made some changes and it took a long time for the IRS to issue the proposed regulations.

I have no empirical evidence but I'm going to say that 99% of the time there will be a dependent child for the QW status. But there are a handful of situations where the child will neither be a QC or a QR. Suppose you have a 19 old child; only a part-time student who earns $5,000. Can't be a QC or a QR - agreed?

But, for purposes of the filing status of Qualifying Widow (we assume all other qualifications are met) that child can qualify the widow (or widower) to use the QW status. As I said in a prior post, this was announced at the 2017 Tax Forums and was not well publicized in most annual tax update sessions. Bottom line = in a handful of cases, a child who is not a dependent under the provisions of §152 serves as a "qualifying person " for the QW status under §2.

[jmcdtax]

I concede. She can NOT.

[spanel]

If you read the 1040 Instructions for 2018 page 17 from IRS.gov:
Qualifying Widow(er)
You can check the “Qualifying widow(
er)” box at the top of Form 1040 and
use joint return tax rates for 2018 if all
of the following apply.
Need more information or forms? Visit IRS.gov. -16-
1. Your spouse died in 2016 or 2017
and you didn't remarry before the end of
2018.
2. You have a child or stepchild (not
a foster child) whom you can claim as a
dependent or could claim as a dependent
except that, for 2018:
a. The child had gross income of
$4,150 or more,
b. The child filed a joint return, or
c. You could be claimed as a dependent
on someone else’s return.
If the child isn’t claimed as your dependent,
enter the child’s name in the
entry space at the far right of the filing
status checkboxes (next to “Qualifying
widow(er)”). If you don’t enter the
name, it will take us longer to process
your return.
3. This child lived in your home for
all of 2018. If the child didn't live with
you for the required time, see Exception
to time lived with you, later.
4. You paid over half the cost of
keeping up your home.
5. You could have filed a joint return
with your spouse the year he or she
died, even if you didn't actually do so.

Yes, the son made more than $4150 but the exception 2a above seems to say he can make whatever. and see the statement after 2c. She provided more than half the support (60,000 vs. 20,000) and he lived with all year. She can claim QW and he can file his own tax return and claim himself.

The way I read it.. All she has to do is pay for over half of the cost keeping up a home. Nothing to do with the sons income. Also I would have to disagree if it wasnt (60,000 vs 20,000) Money earned has very little to do with 1/2 support. Just because she earned 60k, doesnt mean she provided over 20k in support.

As I read it, she qualifies for QW filing status.

Chris

[mastertaxguy]

If she provided over 50% of his support, YES, she can claim Qualifying Widow, and YES, he claims his own exemption.

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p50...link1000220835

Huh?

The test here is more than half the cost of keeping up the household, not support of a child.

So all this "discussion" about the adult child living in mom's house and has income >$4150 seems off base.

Unless the child is paying mom an amount equal to half of the cost of maintaining the household.

Qualifying child, in this scenario, doesn't matter. Neither does support of the adult child matter in this situatiion.

The Chart on P. 3-11 of TheTaxBook 1040 and small business if rather clear.

When in doubt, rtfm.

[Rapid Robert]

I suspect this is an unintended quirk in the law. From a layman's point of view the purpose of QW (surviving spouse) filing status is to provide a two-year "bridge" from MFJ to HOH status. Otherwise, the widow would jump from MFJ to HOH immediately in the year after death.

As for the code, it is correct that the $4,150 gross earnings test does not matter, but the two other tests (beside relationship) BOTH count. The child STILL has to receive more than half of his support from the parent (and it is correct, income does not matter for support), AND also the parent has to pay more than half the costs of the household they both live in.

What bothers me is the sloppy grammar/punctuation of this code section, Sec. 2(a)(1)(B). Compare clauses (i) with (ii), quoted here. (i) says without regard to the $4,150 gross earnings test, but (ii) clearly says that a deduction under 151 must still be something taxpayer is entitled to. I guess the parenthetical phrase in (i) is also supposed to apply to (ii), but that's not how an ordinary English speaker would read this.

"(B) who maintains as his home a household which constitutes for the taxable year the principal place of abode (as a member of such household) of a dependent (i) who (within the meaning of section 152, determined without regard to subsections (b)(1), (b)(2), and (d)(1)(B) thereof) is a son, stepson, daughter, or stepdaughter of the taxpayer, and (ii) with respect to whom the taxpayer is entitled to a deduction for the taxable year under section 151."

[Rapid Robert]

The test here is more than half the cost of keeping up the household, not support of a child.

[...] Neither does support of the adult child matter in this situatiion..

I don't agree. The support test matters in addition to the cost of household test, see previous post and the language of Sec. 2. In other words, the person still has to be a dependent as for HOH, except the $4,150 gross earnings test is ignored; the relationship must be strictly a child; and the qualifying person has to live in the household the entire year, not just more than half.

[TaxGuyBill]

Huh?

The test here is more than half the cost of keeping up the household, not support of a child.

So all this "discussion" about the adult child living in mom's house and has income >$4150 seems off base.

Unless the child is paying mom an amount equal to half of the cost of maintaining the household.

Qualifying child, in this scenario, doesn't matter. Neither does support of the adult child matter in this situatiion.

The Chart on P. 3-11 of TheTaxBook 1040 and small business if rather clear.

When in doubt, rtfm.

The original question already said she paid for the Household.

However, another requirement is that the child is either (1) a dependent or (2) would have been a dependent if they had earned less than $4150. In order for the 27 year old to have been a dependent, the mother must have paid for over half of his support.

So as I originally said (and as several others have pointed out), if she paid for over 50% of his support, she qualifies for Qualifying Widow.

[New York Enrolled Agent]

"Yes, the son made more than $4150 but the exception 2a above seems to say he can make whatever. and see the statement after 2c. She provided more than half the support (60,000 vs. 20,000) and he lived with all year. She can claim QW and he can file his own tax return and claim himself"

As I read this from page 17, they are talking about a child--see page 21 for definition of qualify child----In taxmom34 post--the son is 27 years old--qualify relative not child.

Gene - for purposes of §2 where the filing status is defined, child means son, stepson, daughter and stepdaughter. Those are the 4 and the only 4 individuals that must live in the household to possibly qualify a taxpayer for the filing status.

[New York Enrolled Agent]

I


What bothers me is the sloppy grammar/punctuation of this code section, Sec. 2(a)(1)(B). Compare clauses (i) with (ii), quoted here. (i) says without regard to the $4,150 gross earnings test, but (ii) clearly says that a deduction under 151 must still be something taxpayer is entitled to. I guess the parenthetical phrase in (i) is also supposed to apply to (ii), but that's not how an ordinary English speaker would read this.

"(B) who maintains as his home a household which constitutes for the taxable year the principal place of abode (as a member of such household) of a dependent (i) who (within the meaning of section 152, determined without regard to subsections (b)(1), (b)(2), and (d)(1)(B) thereof) is a son, stepson, daughter, or stepdaughter of the taxpayer, and (ii) with respect to whom the taxpayer is entitled to a deduction for the taxable year under section 151."

RR- you are correct - the literal language in the code is problematical.

The regulations are the official Treasury interpretations of the code. In the proposed regs for §2, a snip of the preamble reads:

Therefore, to give effect to the statutory amendment, the proposed regulations construe the language added by WFTRA instead to modify the section 152 requirements that apply in determining whether the taxpayer is entitled to the dependency exemption under section 151 for purposes of section 2(a)(1)(B)(ii). Accordingly, the proposed regulations provide that an individual is a dependent for purposes of section 2(a) if the taxpayer may claim a deduction under section 151 for the individual without applying sections 152(b)(1), (b)(2), and (d)(1)(B).

§152(d)(1)(B) is the gross income test. The regs now ask - could a taxpayer claim a dependent if the gross income test was not there? If the answer is yes, then the son, stepson, daughter or stepdaughter makes the taxpayer eligible for QW (provided, of course, all other requirements are met)

[taxmom34]

BEFORE THIS YEAR 2018, we were taught to determine filing status first, then go on to dependents. with tax year to determine filing status we must look to see if dependent is really a dependent. in the case I presented the child was over 19 or 24 year old, so he is not a qualifying child. he used his 15000 (subtract 5000 from 20000) to support himself so , he is not a dependent.