Anybody

[Black Bart]

read any good (tax) books lately?

[Snaggletooth]

Jainen

Jainen has. I think it was "The Rise and Fall of the American Tax System", "The Red Badge of Audits" or maybe "The Rime of the Ancient Partnership".

Of course, nothing like this going on in Minnesota...

[jainen]

Actually

Actually what I'm reading these days is Patrick O'Brian's "Post Captain" (third in the series). And I'm working my way through "Murder One" every night on DVD.

[Black Bart]

The literati

Any more of that bogus tax advice you've been handing out and you'll be confined to
either debtors' prison with Captain Jack or to Elba with Nappie.

[Gary]

Fair Tax

I just read "The FairTax" by Neal Boortz.

After reading it, I think it is a good idea, although I'm sure it will never pass. Anyone else have any comments on the FairTax?

[Unregistered]

Fair Tax

Haven't read the book, but have heard about it. As I understand it, the gist of the idea is to
replace the federal income tax, abolish the IRS, and put all of us out a job. The method of acheiving this stupendous task: impose a 23% sales tax on everybody.

Aside from the obvious disadvantage (to put it mildly) to our profession; I have to say that I totally disagree with your view that it's a good idea. Just think of the obvious results. For instance, the average low-income client comes into your office to get his earned income credit refund. After they shoot the breeze for a few minutes about how terrible it is that the public has to pay all these taxes, the government's ripping them off, etc., etc., they ask for a refund estimate. I say about $3,000 and they reply, "Is that all?" Now, do away with that refund that they've grown used to (a reformist, ancient Roman emperor once tried that and the mob literally handed him his head) and tell them that it's not coming back. Also say that every one of the hundreds of items of merchandise he/she buys each year is going up in price significantly, e.g., a VCR that previously cost $99 is now going to cost around $123. More, actually, because the states are not going to do away with their own sales tax--it's the main source of revenue for many, if not most, of them. Ours here is 8.25% which would bring our VCR up to $131. Twenty-five dollars worth of groceries would now cost thirty. Repeat that scenario hundreds of times throughout the year and the public would be screaming for relief. As it is now they only have to try to dodge that tax bullet (assuming they owe anything) once a year and it's over with. Some can do it with inflated expenses or understated income, some can just say goodbye to refunds. Those now paying income taxes would be on a honeymoon with a new bride for a while, but I'll bet endless daily repetition of now-expensive goods all year long would generate a longing for their old divorced IRS by the time April 15th rolled around.

The low-income crowd are the ones getting the freebies and are also the squeaking wheels that get the government grease. Try that sales tax idea for a long-enough time and you'd hear a public outcry such as the nation has never heard before.-----Black Bart

[Black Bart]

Timeline

Actually, it wouldn't take much time at all for that horse to bite the dust.

We've experienced extra-high gas prices for about a month now. Think about what you think about that. What do you want to say to your senator or congressman about it?

It's the same thing.

[jainen]

Oh Black Bart

Oh Black Bart, you should read the book. It's far worse than you think. First of all, the federal rate is 30%, not 23%. But not everyone pays it. Anybody buying "for business use" gets a complete pass! Guess what happens for part-business use, or if you buy it for "business" and then convert it to personal. Also, it's not 30% on everything, only new stuff. So if you buy "factory reconditioned" you'll be okay. Or if you rent-to-own. In other words, nobody gonna pay nothin on this scheme! Oh, did I mention services? The tax is required to be collected not only by every storekeeper in the land, but also by every gardener and maid and taxi driver in the land. That's why we don't need the IRS no more. Don't worry about your EIC clients. To help low-income people pay for necessities they'll all get pre-bate checks ahead of time, and I got a feeling a great many people will qualify since no one's tracking income any more. Probably the only people who would actually pay anything are stupid or otherwise honest souls like me.

[Snaggletooth]

Honest Souls?

Well I've heard it all now. Any more "honest souls" out there? I can hardly compose myself enough to even stay in the chair! Speaking of rude, Neal Boortz is the ultimate, in fact, I'm surprised to find out Jainen is not his protege. Actually, I've got to congratulate ol' Jainen for not buying into the so-called "fair tax."

I've listened to the Boortz show once, and that was enough. Arrogance to the exponential. Wants to make himself appear smart by making others appear stupid. None of the "others" ever get a chance to meet him on an even playing field. They are not on the air with him, and if anyone calls in with enough information to nail him to the carpet, he hits the "cancel" button. Boortz, Savage, Limbaugh, and the other political extremists needs to be on the radio, but on a monitored show with a level playing field. Limbaugh is the "Moses" of conservative talk show hosts, but can anyone ever remember him allowing anyone on his show with a dissenting view?? Liberals are just as polarized, but there don't seem to be as many of their radio shows.

If anyone wonders, Snag is a Conservative Democrat (who refused to vote for Kerry), but will otherwise shy from getting into politics in this discussion. There are Minnesota people galore on this board, and I probably would have supported Jesse Ventura.

Boortz would probably LOVE his new tax plan. Firstly the 23% is accountative of the tax itself, meaning the "real" tax is almost 30%. If he makes $500,000 annually, and spends only $80,000, that means his tax is $18,000, and buried in the $80,000. He can manage somehow to eke out a subsistance on the remaining $420,000.

What about YOU? If your family income is, say, $80,000, you probably spend $60,000 inclusive of the new tax. You can probably manage. But what if your income is $35,000 for a family of four? You must spend your entire income for a meager existence at today's prices. Only with the Boortz tax, you now must spend $48,000 to buy what $35,000 does today.

So does he think Tax Planning goes out the window? Wrong. There will be incredibly simple tax planning at work very quickly. It's called QUIT SPENDING MONEY. That's the only way to cut your taxes. This should be absolutely wonderful for our economy. Lack of sales, inventory backs up in warehouses, production cuts back, people get laid off.

This tax is another in a series of tax ideas propulgated by the very rich. The so-called "Flat Tax" has been around for 20 years. The very rich don't stop long enough to realize they are rich simply because their source of wealth is an economy is geared to suck the wealth from the poor and uneducated. Jainen mentions a clamor of protest from those who no longer receive thousands of dollars in earned income credit, and instead have to fight rising costs of groceries from the "Boortz tax."

Jainen, as sick as it makes us preparers to watch the EIC crowd leave with a check for $4,000, have you ever been close enough to any of these people to see what happens to all this money? Within 24 hours, it is in the hands of a used car dealer, a pawnbroker, a banker, a medical-type creditor, a furniture store, etc. This doesn't mean a better life for these taxpayers -- only the used car dealer, pawnbroker, etc.

Even tax preparers belly up to the table to get a piece of it. We crawl in bed with bankers to siphon off a good bit of it.

Thank all of you who have read this far, and flee from the concept of "Trickle-down" economy espoused by the wealthy on every turn. Even the wealthy are better off with "Bubble-up" economy.

Geez - sounds like everyone gets cranky except me, right?

[Gary]

Did you read the book?

I have a feeling that all the critics did not actually read the book!!

[Unregistered]

Gary-Fair Tax

Sorry, no offense intended. Certainly you're entitled to your point of view and, as I did mention, I have not read the book. And...since I haven't, then I'm probably not qualified to make a serious criticism of it.

Still, I will say that if the part I heard about the IRS being abolished (is this true?) is correct, then by inference it seems to me that the same fate would await all tax preparers.
Call it a lack of public-spiritedness on my part, but I'd just have to be "agin" rather than "fer" it. What else could I/we be? There's such a thing as being so open-minded that your brains fall out.

Just curious, but are you a tax professional?----Black Bart

[Bees Knees]

Anytime someone talks about flat tax (or fair tax) I pull out the statistics. See QF page 16-14, Who Pays Federal Individual Income Tax?

Well in 2001, 5% of all taxpayers paid 53% of the total tax. While 50% of all taxpayers paid 4% of the total tax.

You might say that is not fair. You would be right. So lets raise the taxes on 50% of the people so that these poor 5% no longer have to pay over half the taxes in this country.

Any guess on who these 5% represent?

[Gary]

Unregistered wrote:

"Still, I will say that if the part I heard about the IRS being abolished (is this true?) is correct, then by inference it seems to me that the same fate would await all tax preparers.'

Of course there would be no need for tax preparers. I'm not that selfish that I would be against a better plan for the country (if this is truly a better plan) just because I would be out of a job.

Gary

[Black Bart]

Unregistered here again

Unregistered wrote:

"Still, I will say that if the part I heard about the IRS being abolished (is this true?) is correct, then by inference it seems to me that the same fate would await all tax preparers.'

Of course there would be no need for tax preparers. I'm not that selfish that I would be against a better plan for the country (if this is truly a better plan) just because I would be out of a job.

Gary

Well, gosh, I'd always thought of myself as a decent sort (of sorts), neither an idealist nor a reprobate, but in there somewhere. Now, however, your firm declaration of noble self-sacrifice for the greater good as opposed to my vile preference to not starve to death has certainly cast me in a bad light (not to mention shedding some light on what you [don't] do for a living.

As a layman and a taxpayer I suppose that your life will go on just as before except that now you won't be bothered by those pesky taxes rolling around every April 15th. I, on the other hand, will have to make this speech to my family: "Look, there's a zealot on the message board who wants to abolish taxes, the IRS, and my profession. He says it's the right thing to do. I'm leaning toward a nay vote, but just wanted to get your input. What do you think? Fam: "Sure, of course we're for it. Who wouldn't be? It'll save the guy down the street a ton won't it? Of course, you'll lose your job, house, car, and us, but hey, so what? After all, he'd do the same for you, right? I'll get cracking and start shopping for a used house trailer and say an, oh, '85 Hyundai right away while you can sign up on unemployment which will last at least a good solid three or four months. No, wait, you're a Schedule C, right? Darn--no unemployment! Oh, well, look at the bright sidee; now you can collect that welfare you're always complaining about!

[Joe Btfsplk]

Abolishing the Income Tax

We got along without the income tax until 1913. Now we think we can't get along without it. In other words, we can't get along without the government spending like a drunk sailor.

The solution would be to cut back on most federal programs and limit the government to maintaining the highways etc. and enforcing laws to protect our citizens. Protect and secure our borders instead of policing the world.

Move the White House from Washington DC to Crawford TX (to cut travel expense).