Form 2441, does all TP's give you the EIN's and/or SS #'s?

[AZ-Tax]

A few clients this year will file form 2441 but the providers will not disclose their EIN or SS#? My software ProSeries use to allow me to override certain forms for e-filing purposes hopefully it still does. Does your clients always have the EIN and/or SS# for their form 2441?

[kathyc2]

A few clients this year will file form 2441 but the providers will not disclose their EIN or SS#? My software ProSeries use to allow me to override certain forms for e-filing purposes hopefully it still does. Does your clients always have the EIN and/or SS# for their form 2441?

I've never had any problems w/ clients not having number. I think there is a better way to handle it than an override. Check the refused box on 2441 and complete the statement as to what steps were taken to obtain the number like the instructions for 2441 say.

IMO an override should be always be the absolute last resort. I doubt it I'm done it more than a handful of times over close to 20 years.

[Y2KEA]

If the provider will not disclose their EIN or SS#, something is wrong with the provider. They are probably hiding income.

[taxea]

The provider, if reported, can be fined for failing/refusing to disclose.

[FEDUKE404]

Filing procedure when SSN/EIN not provided

I think there are some errors in this discussion. . .

The taxpayer can present the Form W-10 to the day care provider.

Instructions for Form 2441 clearly state the procedure to be used when the day care provider does not provide the appropriate SSN/EIN. The process starts with the taxpayer keeping a copy of the Form W-10 on file.

Whether the day care provider is or is not declaring the "income" should be of no concern to the clients. OTOH, failing to provide the required information, per a valid Form W-10 request, might wave a red flag or two.

In the absence of a SSN/EIN for each provider, the client is prohibited from efiling. PERIOD. That's just the way it works.

I cannot imagine a tax professional overriding a required entry or, even worse, entering a fake SSN just so they can efile a tax return. WOW !! Did someone sleep through the annual required ethics class??

FE

[David1980]

You can efile without SSN or EIN. The IRS schema even has a couple examples of due diligence statements.

<xsd:enumeration value="THE PROVIDER HAS MOVED AND I AM UNABLE TO FIND THE PROVIDER TO GET THE TIN"/>
<xsd:enumeration value="THE PROVIDER HAS REFUSED TO GIVE ME THE TIN"/>



I wouldn't automatically enter "REFUSED" if the taxpayer didn't have the info - I would make them try to get it. However if they made the proper efforts to obtain the TIN, I'd file without an EIN/SSN.

[FEDUKE404]

No SSN/EIN needed now ? ?

You can efile without SSN or EIN. The IRS schema even has a couple examples of due diligence statements. . .

If you now can efile a Form 2441 without having the provider's SSN/EIN present, that is a recent change.

My last encounter with such a scenario was with a 2011 tax return. The tax software automatically generated a statement at the bottom of page 2 of Form 2441 - "The care provider refused to provide the SSN." My software checker then stated the tax return could not be efiled due to that specific reason, and a paper return was needed instead. The paper return was successfully filed to include a statement the taxpayer had met the (then) required due diligence requirements. It just took a long time for the refunds to arrive. . .

We all agree a tax return can be filed without having the provider's SSN/EIN present. Whether or not that also extends to efiling is still somewhat unclear.

Perhaps the IRS has become more tolerant??

FE

[David1980]

Most likely a change when e-file changed over from legacy to MEF. Not all software was supporting MEF for 2011 returns.

The Schemas and Business Rules for MEF are available on the IRS site - https://www.irs.gov/Tax-Professional...ernized-e-File.

[dborg]

IRS pub 503

Review page 9 of Publication 503 under "Provider refusal."

[taxea]

From Pub 503
Due diligence. If the care provider information you give
is incorrect or incomplete, your credit may not be allowed.
However, if you can show that you used due diligence in
trying to supply the information, you can still claim the
credit.
You can show due diligence by getting and keeping the
provider's completed Form W-10 or one of the other sources
of information just listed. Care providers can be penalized
if they do not provide this information to you or if they
provide incorrect information.
Provider refusal. If the provider refuses to give you
the identifying information, you should report on Form
2441 whatever information you have (such as the name
and address). Enter “See Attached Statement” in the columns
calling for the information you do not have. Then attach
a statement explaining that you requested the information
from the care provider, but the provider did not
give you the information. Be sure to write your name and
social security number on this statement. The statement
will show that you used due diligence in trying to furnish
the necessary information

I call the provider and ask for it. I have also made a list of providers that my clients have used, over the years, that includes name, adr, phone #, ein or ssn. Hawaii requires them to provide it. If I can't get it I look up and report their Hawaii license # on the statement I send with the return.

[taxea]

From Pub 503
Due diligence. If the care provider information you give is incorrect or incomplete, your credit may not be allowed. However, if you can show that you used due diligence in trying to supply the information, you can still claim the credit.
You can show due diligence by getting and keeping the provider's completed Form W-10 or one of the other sources of information just listed. Care providers can be penalized if they do not provide this information to you or if they provide incorrect information.
Provider refusal. If the provider refuses to give you the identifying information, you should report on Form 2441 whatever information you have (such as the name and address). Enter “See Attached Statement” in the columns calling for the information you do not have. Then attach a statement explaining that you requested the information from the care provider, but the provider did not
give you the information. Be sure to write your name and social security number on this statement. The statement will show that you used due diligence in trying to furnish the necessary information

I call the provider and ask for it. I have also made a list of providers that my clients have used, over the years, that includes name, adr, phone #, ein or ssn. Hawaii requires them to provide it. If I can't get it I look up and report their Hawaii license # on the statement I send with the return.

[FEDUKE404]

Putting the matter to bed

It looks as if everyone here has a firm grasp on the current due diligence requirements needed to mollify the missing SSN/EIN.

My 2011 client also jumped through similar hoops, without trouble, and as noted the extra verbiage was automatically printed at the bottom of PAGE 2 of the Form 2441 by the tax software.

Only The Shadow knows why the 2011 client return was blocked from efiling. . .but it was and for the stated reason. . .and we moved on.

(Oh yes: Client no longer does business with the 2011 provider. )

FE