Efile Without Form 8879 Signed

[geekgirldany]

I have started working with a new client. He sent me PDF copy of this prior year return. What I found interesting was in the note from the CPA, she has:
"state that it is okay for me to efile your tax return and that your are mailing me a signed copy of Form 8879. I will efile based on your reply to this email."

Now I take that as the return will be efiled based on the email response not having the 8879. I always thought you could not efile until you had the signed 8879 in your hands. Has anyone else seen this?

[ATSMAN]

This year on 4/15 I had to e-file a tax return without having a physical signed copy of 8879. Taxpayer was out of town on business. I had an e-mail from him that he had reviewed the return that I e-mailed to him previously and that he agrees and requests me to file ASAP with a promise that the 8879 will be dropped off at my office as soon as he returns back that weekend.

I asked him to fax me a copy of the signed 8879 but he was not sure it would be safe to fax it from a public fax service where he was.

[TaxGuyBill]

I won't file without a signature. If it's April 15th, I would file an extension and wait for the signature to actually file the return.

Section 6061 requires a signature. Although some 'electronic' signatures are okay, an email saying 'okay' does NOT have the perjury statement or anything like that. To me, until I SEE the signature, I consider is unsigned.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/6061

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Signing-an-Electronic-Tax-Return

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Electronic-Signature-Guidance-for-Forms-8878-and-8879

http://www.journalofaccountancy.com/news/20149774.htm

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1345.pdf#page=22

[ATSMAN]

I won't file without a signature. If it's April 15th, I would file an extension and wait for the signature to actually file the return.

Section 6061 requires a signature. Although some 'electronic' signatures are okay, an email saying 'okay' does NOT have the perjury statement or anything like that. To me, until I SEE the signature, I consider is unsigned.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/6061

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Signing-an-Electronic-Tax-Return

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Electronic-Signature-Guidance-for-Forms-8878-and-8879

http://www.journalofaccountancy.com/news/20149774.htm

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1345.pdf#page=22

Unfortunately this was a balance due return with direct debit so it had to be filed by 4/15 to avoid penalties. A signed 8879 was dropped off that weekend and the signature date was 4/15. He had signed it when we spoke but was uncomfortable faxing it from a public fax service.

[FEDUKE404]

Perspective

Things can get hectic for us all as 04/15 approaches, but the bottom line is that the preparer/efiler is in violation for (essentially) filing an unsigned return, whether it be via Form 8879 or even Form 8878, if the appropriately signed form is not available at the time of transmittal.

(You may wish to read some of the boilerplate on Form 8879 and Form 8878.)

Whether it's either (wink/wink) OK to do so "IF. . . .," or falls into the category of "I've done it plenty of times without problems," is essentially irrelevant to that rule.

As a refresher, from page 21 of Publication 1345: "The ERO may enter the taxpayers’ PINs in the electronic return record before the taxpayers sign Form 8878 or 8879, but the taxpayers must sign and date the appropriate form before the ERO originates the electronic submission of the return. The taxpayer must sign and date the Form 8878 or Form 8879 after reviewing the return and ensuring the tax return information on the form matches the information on the return. The taxpayer may return the completed Form 8878 or Form 8879 to the ERO by hand delivery, U.S. mail, private delivery service, fax, email or an Internet website."

If this same "unavailable" client were to file a paper return instead, would you just drop it (unsigned) into the mailbox with the promise a signed copy would be mailed later? Of course not.

For those clients who get boxed in at the last minute (bad planning) or even have good intentions (similar) there obviously ARE ways to get a signed document, or an acceptable copy thereof, to the preparer.

The general rule of "Bad planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part" is worthy of due consideration.

FE

[Y2KEA]

In this situation I tell my clients to print & execute the form. I then instruct them to take a pic of the 8879 with their cell phone & email or text it to me. I print the form & problem solved.

[ATSMAN]

>>> As a refresher, from page 21 of Publication 1345: "The ERO may enter the taxpayers’ PINs in the electronic return record before the taxpayers sign Form 8878 or 8879, but the taxpayers must sign and date the appropriate form before the ERO originates the electronic submission of the return. The taxpayer must sign and date the Form 8878 or Form 8879 after reviewing the return and ensuring the tax return information on the form matches the information on the return. The taxpayer may return the completed Form 8878 or Form 8879 to the ERO by hand delivery, U.S. mail, private delivery service, fax, email or an Internet website."

I got to admit I had not read this page from the pub, so thanks for posting it. But in my situation i think I was ok because the taxpayer had signed the 8879 after reviewing the complete tax return on 4/15 the day I e-filed his return. The taxpayer returned the signed 8879 to the ERO that weekend! IRS says taxpayer could US mail it to me and I would have received it around the same time!

I did not think about asking him to take a pic with his phone and texting me that. Next time I will remember to do that if I am bumping up against a deadline.

[Lion]

What if your client got hit by a truck and never delivered a signed 8879 to you? What if they were contemplating divorce, so one/both never signed that 8879 but chose to file separately? What if you got hit by a truck and didn't get to your office to receive the 8879? What if the client dated it later than 4/15?

I have clients that email me Forms 8879 and clients that upload them to FileShare (a portal) on my website using their smart phones or scanners or faxes/all-in-ones that scan. I may suggest texting the 8879 picture now that it has been suggested.

[FEDUKE404]

Plan B

And whose fault was it that it ran right up to the 4/15 deadline? Let me guess. He could always have mailed a c***k with an extension form from his location, with you emailing him the form via pdf. Or you could have efiled an extension without a signature, and the return later with a bank account debit. Either of which I would have done. And in fact, is what I did do this year for one client, advising him he would probably get a bill for interest. No sympathy for the latecomers who don't make MY deadline any more.
And life gets easier.

FWIW: If he wanted to extend and had an expected balance due, you could have just as easily filed for him a Form 8878 + Form 4868, with accompanying bank debit, prior to April 15th.

Of course, then you're kinda back at box one re an eventual Form 8879 (and the same EFIN signature rules for a Form 8878).

FE

[Snaggletooth]

Some kind of signature required

Before electronic filing, everyone had to sign their 1040, and this was so absolute that we would not be having this kind of discussion.

Now, the 8879 is the only thing they sign, the only deference to the signature is that we are to keep it on file. So why now are we even
considering clients to bail out of the signature. If they've been hit by lightning, or leave for Cancun, or any other fashionable reason,
then why do they think they can put us in this liability position if they never had to do it with the 1040?

If they succeed in getting you to file without signing anything, guess what "emergency" will come up next year?

[JohnH]

This is exactly why I dislike e-flinging so much.
We are tax PREPARERS, but the e-flinging process seeks to turn us into tax FILERS.

Regardless of the many benefits associated with becoming a data entry clerk for the IRS with respect to efficiency, the e-flinging process places considerable liability on the person who accepts the responsibility.

There are still more steps to come, and even more liabilities yet to be forced upon tax preparers.

[taxea]

Unfortunately this was a balance due return with direct debit so it had to be filed by 4/15 to avoid penalties. A signed 8879 was dropped off that weekend and the signature date was 4/15. He had signed it when we spoke but was uncomfortable faxing it from a public fax service.

tp could have done a direct payment through eftps or pay my taxes etc. You could still have efiled after receiving the signed 8879 if you had done an extension. there would be no penalties because the taxes would have been paid on time.

[ATSMAN]

All good points about the risk associated with e-filing without a signed 8879 in hand. But sometimes in life you have to make a decision given the circumstances and one has to assume some risk of it backfiring on you.

This is a long time client who has referred many family and friends. I knew I was going to get the signed 8879 that weekend unless he got run over by the proverbial beer truck! This was an unexpected business trip that sprang up at the last minute otherwise he would have been at my office on 4/15.

All my other clients who were not quite "ready" by 4/15 were put on extension. I am still working on those and a few don't budge until 10/15!

[taxxcpa]

Sometimes you may be justified in bending the rules, but you do so at your own risk. You would have to really trust the client if you file without a signed 8879.

If the client was killed before signing, it is not too likely that the IRS would know the difference. Unless you are an EIC specialist, it is not too likely that the IRS is going to check to make sure you have signed 8879s.

[geekgirldany]

I want to thank everyone for posting. A good discussion. I had never seen this before and knew it wasn't correct.... I always like to double check. This same accountant told my new client to do a salary of $15,000 a year on the S-Corp but it has a net of $50,000 (before any payroll). So I am in the midst of educating actually a couple of new clients on the risk of low to no salary in S-Corps. Can not believe there are accountants/tax preparers still recommending such.