taxpayer w memory problem

[luke]

Just had an elderly gentleman come in for us to "do his taxes" - problem is we did them last month, he paid us, we efiled them already!
(his wife is just as bad) - He owed big bucks to Fed and state - wonder if they will ever get their $$
so sad......

[Burke]

It is. Maybe he "remembered" in the back of his mind that he owed money and hasn't paid it. I think I would follow up, if you can find the time. If he can't remember whether he paid them, ask him to bring in his checkbook register and maybe you can have him check with the bank while he is there, if necessary. Good time to find out if they have executed POA's to someone.

I usually have my elderlies write the checks to the IRS and state right when they pick up the return. Then I mail them. One of mine had such a time with his estimated payments last year, I set him up on direct debit this year so he doesn't have to remember it any more.

[luke]

this same taxpayer

this taxpayer with the memory problem has now been back to our office 4 times to have us do his taxes! they have already been efiled and accepted and he has a large balance due! If he cant remember that they have been done he probably hasn't sent a check for payment? Finally found a contact for his daughter and while she and siblings are aware of "problem" they are not sure what to do about it.......
"but for the grace of God"!

[Burke]

Well, if he didn't pay it you will know soon enough, as he will get a letter from the IRS maybe 30 days after the filing deadline since the amount due is in their computer. And I imagine he will be back again then. I am guessing from your post that no one does have a POA. If he were my client, I would offer to go to his home and review his checkbook/bank accounts. And I take it he is still driving......

[geekgirldany]

His family knows it but does not know what to do about it... goodness they need to do something. I understand where they are coming from at the same time. I have a relative that is getting confused quite a bit. She will not admit that she has a medical problem. Family has offered to go to the doctor with her as she comes back telling one thing one day and another thing another day. It is hard to deal with and to figure out what to do.

So he does not even think his tax return has been filed? What does he do when you tell him? I don't know how involved you want to get into it. If you could get him to bring in his checkbook, bank statement, and help him write the checks. Not sure that might cause trouble for you... never know what family might do.

[mastertaxguy]

Lawyers, for example, have checklists for mental capacity (dementia) when dealing with elderly clients on estate planning, gifting and so on. Doctors and health care professionals have better checklists and are usually better trained. Most states have something called "adult protective services." I have contacted such agencies in the past three years on a couple of occasions with facts simliar to the OP; never had a negative feedback; in each case the TP/client (or spouse) ended up getting services and medical attention long overdue.

Bigger question to me in such cases is how did the TP get to your office: drove own vehicle, rode a bicyle, walk? And once at your office, how did they get home or to their next stop? Others may ask if you got paid.

Writing only for myself (I seldom rely on family (children/spouse/friends/etc) to take action because they will not and siblings always fight amongst themselves when this happens),
I would make the call to a third party agency. Doing nothing is worse than enabling: it is more like kicking the can down the road. Waiting for family simply enables the TP to smash though a glass window at a store claiming the accelerator stuck--which is partially true becuase his/her foot slipped off the brake pedal onto the accelerator.

Surely many will say that is not my or "our" business. However, if that were true, this post and replies would not have happened.

[luke]

I agree

Mastertaxguy - I totally agree with your reply! I contacted the daughter who brought client in (who was STILL very confused) - my next call WAS going to be Adult Prot svcs. What I didn't understand was WHY the daughter was talking to her Dad/asking him questions when he obviously was NOT able to understand or reply! She asked him had he "paid the taxes you were given"? His answer was "I've paid taxes for years"! He could not remember writing a check to IRS (why didn't daughter insist on seeing the checkbook and/or going to the bank with Dad to see if checks had cleared) (YES we were paid by check before we e-filed the returns)! The daughter admitted that the other siblings KNOW there is a problem but cannot "make" Dad do anything! YES he was driving which was the very SCARIEST part of the whole matter! If I call APS now, the daughter/family will know it was me? I will give it a couple of more days before I make a follow-up call to daughter?!?!

[Burke]

That's ridiculous. There are several actions they can take, including getting a court-ordered guardianship to handle his affairs. You don't give his age, but due to his mental confusion his driving skills may also be impaired. A lot of states can take certain actions if the DMV is notified.

[JohnH]

Sounds like the main problem is the daughter has no clue about how to deal with dementia and/or cognitive impairment. Most people get frustrated, press for answers, argue, and generally cause the person to become more confused. It's amazing how different the person will react if the family member will talk calmly and reassuringly, no matter how many times the person repeats themselves or becomes confused. Doesn't always work, but it is sure better than yelling at them or treating them like a misbehaving child.

[joanmcq]

I've got a client who has been getting a bit more confused over the years, especially his wife. But his hearing is shot so a lot of times I'll have to talk to the wife because he just can't understand what I'm saying. I was so happy when his son came along for the appointment this year, especially since the client 'misplaced' the most important tax docs, like his pension and their social security statements. I was able to tell the son how to get replacements online,(the couple doesn't have a computer, of course) and I mentioned how I was becoming a bit worried about them.

I went through this with my own parents. Luckily my sister lived only 4 hours from them and took over the finances, since both my brothers in the same town as the parents were utterly useless.

[Burke]

As my clientele become more elderly, I try to make sure to ask if someone has a POA for them and if so, I request a copy for my files. And the contact information.

[JohnH]

Good suggestion Burke.
That little precaution has paid off for me (and for my clients) in a couple of situations over the past few years.

Having a copy of the Durable POA on hand can save a tremendous amount of anxiety when you MUST speak with a family member about a problem - whether real or potential.

[Burke]

Mastertaxguy - I totally agree with your reply! I contacted the daughter who brought client in (who was STILL very confused) - my next call WAS going to be Adult Prot svcs. What I didn't understand was WHY the daughter was talking to her Dad/asking him questions when he obviously was NOT able to understand or reply! She asked him had he "paid the taxes you were given"? His answer was "I've paid taxes for years"! He could not remember writing a check to IRS (why didn't daughter insist on seeing the checkbook and/or going to the bank with Dad to see if checks had cleared) (YES we were paid by check before we e-filed the returns)! The daughter admitted that the other siblings KNOW there is a problem but cannot "make" Dad do anything! YES he was driving which was the very SCARIEST part of the whole matter! If I call APS now, the daughter/family will know it was me? I will give it a couple of more days before I make a follow-up call to daughter?!?!

I would bet if you called her every time he came in or called you, they would get pretty tired of it and take some kind of action. Especially if you let them know APS would be involved.

[tpnl]

Feeling Sympathy

We have many clients who it may just be their age or dementia and getting forgetful. Last year after completing a tax return for a client, she called multiple times a day for several days asking about her return & when it would be done. It was done, she just couldn't remember.

Seems like we have more clients this year where the children are helping. With our aging poplulation and people living longer, I think this is just the tip of the iceberg.