Firearms Training Deductible?

[Burke]

Here's a new one. Employer takes employees to firing range and pays for instruction on how to handle firearms (which they have at their place of business for "protection.)" This business does not handle money or cash. Reasonable and ordinary?

[veritas]

What do they protect?

Here's a new one. Employer takes employees to firing range and pays for instruction on how to handle firearms (which they have at their place of business for "protection.)" This business does not handle money or cash. Reasonable and ordinary?

Do you think you have a better than 50% chance to prevail? When you are explaining to a Gubmint employee?

[Burke]

I am guessing, themselves. From what, I cannot say. Kidnapping? Ransom?

[veritas]

If they live and work

I am guessing, themselves. From what, I cannot say. Kidnapping? Ransom?

in Chicago, Philadelphia, DC it is deductible.

[Burke]

Otherwise, it is a taxable fringe benefit?

[veritas]

I was joking

Otherwise, it is a taxable fringe benefit?

......sort of

[ChEAr$]

I would definitely give the deduction a green light. Once a jeweler client had a big dog he took with around town when picking up jewelry for repair from other shops. Dog food, license, meds, everything, deductible.

Here an employer has a duty I believe to ensure as far as possible employees's safety. Section 162 for sure.

[Burke]

If the business was retail, or handled valuables, or had anything of value to protect of that nature, I would be inclined to agree. Somehow, I cannot see a thief coming in during broad daylight or during working hours to pinch a desk or a file cabinet. Mmmm, they do have a TV downstairs in the break room, though. Attached to the wall. And -- OF COURSE -- they could steal the guns! Hadn't thought about that!

[Koss]

Cost of Training

I would say yes, it is deductible, if the business owner wants his employees to be armed, or if they want to be armed, and the owner explicitly authorizes it.

The fact that the business does not handle money or cash certainly does not mean that it is not an ordinary and necessary business expense.

Whether it is an ordinary business expense turns on all facts and circumstances--not just whether the business handles money.

There are probably some businesses where you might have difficulty explaining why the business felt a need to arm its employees. But I'm actually having trouble coming up with an example. Say you work in a warehouse, that gets shipments in and out all day, but all payments are handled at some other facility. Does that mean there's no danger to employees? Certainly not. Whatever is stored in the warehouse could still be a target of theft.

It is difficult to imagine a business environment that is completely devoid of any risk of violence to its employees. If the office, or laboratory, or whatever it may be, is located inside a secure compound, with heavy-duty access control and armed guards, then maybe it would appear that the employees working inside do not need firearms. But that's a very subjective question. In this example, even if those employees, working inside, are not armed, the employer is still paying for security--whether in the form of armed guards, unarmed guards, security cameras, alarm systems, dogs, whatever...

I think it's a deductible business expense.

BMK

[Burke]

Interesting... I don't have a problem with security systems or paid armed guards, etc. on any business. Deduct them all the time. These are designed to prevent thefts at night or holidays when no one is on the premises. Some additional info: these particular guns are not the employer's guns. And they are locked up in a safe, unloaded. Might be just a little bit difficult to access when needed, but hey, if it makes them feel better.......

[Burke]

I was joking......sort of

I know. And my response about the taxable fringe benefit was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.

[veritas]

How about deducting the training

As a team building exercise under working condition fringe benefit.

Pretty hard to explain the training for safety when the weapons are locked up. Not much good unless there is a zombie outbreak.

[taxea]

Here's a new one. Employer takes employees to firing range and pays for instruction on how to handle firearms (which they have at their place of business for "protection.)" This business does not handle money or cash. Reasonable and ordinary?

You don't say what type of business it is but they don't handle cash or money yet have the firearm for "protection". I don't see "ordinary or necessary" for protection that surveillance cameras/alarms wouldn't do just as well and at extremely less liability to the business owner. Even the use of a "junk-yard dog" would afford the owner with less liability. Why does it have to be a gun?

More info about this business necessary for me to opine further.

It sounds more like the owner is keeping the guns there for their protection rather than that of the business or employees. I just don't see justification for a business expense here.

[FEDUKE404]

Go ahead, make my day ?

In today's world, I probably would have no problem with training employees on the use of firearms.

Having said that, I am curious as to how the employer handles "firearms on the premises." Is there a rack of AR-15s available for assault? Or is it for those who might have a personal firearm they bring to work and, with management's approval, receive some additional training?

[ Aside: If an employee is qualified for a carry permit, they probably already would have been required to pass certain standards. ]

Either way, I could foresee some interesting discussions for the company that provides liability insurance to the business. Either "So, you encourage your employees to bring firearms to work?" or "You have a cache of weapons on site for security purposes?" might raise some eyebrows.

From a tax standpoint, I would say it's a reasonably simple call that the expenses would be allowable to the employer. From a business (and liability!) standpoint, there probably are better ways to address any security concerns.

FE

[kpangelinan]

I would say yes, it is deductible, if the business owner wants his employees to be armed, or if they want to be armed, and the owner explicitly authorizes it.

The fact that the business does not handle money or cash certainly does not mean that it is not an ordinary and necessary business expense.

Whether it is an ordinary business expense turns on all facts and circumstances--not just whether the business handles money.

There are probably some businesses where you might have difficulty explaining why the business felt a need to arm its employees. But I'm actually having trouble coming up with an example. Say you work in a warehouse, that gets shipments in and out all day, but all payments are handled at some other facility. Does that mean there's no danger to employees? Certainly not. Whatever is stored in the warehouse could still be a target of theft.

It is difficult to imagine a business environment that is completely devoid of any risk of violence to its employees. If the office, or laboratory, or whatever it may be, is located inside a secure compound, with heavy-duty access control and armed guards, then maybe it would appear that the employees working inside do not need firearms. But that's a very subjective question. In this example, even if those employees, working inside, are not armed, the employer is still paying for security--whether in the form of armed guards, unarmed guards, security cameras, alarm systems, dogs, whatever...

I think it's a deductible business expense.

BMK

I'm 1000% on board with this response. Very well said.

Interesting... I don't have a problem with security systems or paid armed guards, etc. on any business. Deduct them all the time. These are designed to prevent thefts at night or holidays when no one is on the premises. Some additional info: these particular guns are not the employer's guns. And they are locked up in a safe, unloaded. Might be just a little bit difficult to access when needed, but hey, if it makes them feel better.......

First of all, safes for quick firearms use isn't going to have a combination lock you're going to have to twist 6 ways back and forth with a steady hand to open like the highschool padlocks we had on lockers back in the day. A smart home or business gun owner will have a biometric fingerprint safe (very cheap these days, for about $100, you can get a really nice one), push button combination, key, or all of the above to access the firearm in 2-3 seconds, tops. Second, the bullets are not hidden on a top shelf somewhere above the china cabinet.....the gun is locked, loaded and ready to go in the safe so when the gun is retrieved, it's ready for use. The safe should only be accessed when 1) there is an intruder or imminent danger in that case, the bullet may in fact come out very quickly and be used for its intended us or 2) it will be retrieved, unlocked, unloaded and cased for safe travel to a shooting range for practice. That's it.....there should be no other reason to access the safe.