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    Forms 8939 and TD F 90-22.1 help needed

    I've previously endured filing the "fbar" (Form TD F 90-22.1) and now need to venture into the new territory of Form 8938. Needless to say, I am a bit befuddled as I roam through the reporting rules.

    My hope is someone has already gone down this path, and can offer me some advice.

    It is clear the client WILL have to file the Form 8938, due to the amount of assets in the foreign accounts involved. The same accounts will also be listed on the Form TD F 90-22.1 which must be filed/received by June 30th. Fortunately, I have a bit more time (October 15th) for the Form 8938 input.

    My fundamental question is which of the following will/will not appear on the two forms. Here we go:

    1 - Client owns shares of foreign corporation XYZ which are held by a US major brokerage firm. The funds are credited to the account in $US, and the 10% UK withholding is shown on the Form 1099-DIV.
    2 - Client owns shares of the same foreign corporation, which are owned outright. The funds are paid in UK ₤, and the client receives 90% of the dividends. There is no Form 1099-DIV. (I did reverse calculate the full amount received and reported same as "qualifying dividends" consistent with the US Form 1099-DIV.)
    3 - Client owns several foreign bank accounts, with all assets in UK ₤. Client states these funds are used for living expenses, and that UK banks pay no interest on such accounts.
    4 - Client owns a foreign investment account referred to as "ISA." Client states it is similar to a 401(k) or perhaps to an IRA. There are no specific records as to "earnings."
    5 - Client owns another foreign investment account. As best I can tell, it is similar to an "in-house" mutual fund, i.e. the firm/entity regularly purchases/sells assets within the fund and its customers own a share of the underlying fund. All transactions are in UK ₤, and of course there is nothing resembling Forms 1099-DIV/INT/B, or even a K-1, issued.

    So, which of the last four must appear on Form TD F 90-22.1 ?

    Which of the last four must appear on Form 8938 ?

    The first two items are already listed on Schedule B, and Form 1116 is in the works. How should the last three items be handled re those two forms ? And for the "income," will that likely require going through a years' worth of statements which are currently unavailable to me and are in foreign currency amounts (to include UK 10% tax when applicable) ?

    As best I can tell, the underlying purpose of Form 8938 is to show on an IRS (not Treasury) form any foreign "accounts." After that, it's a matter of showing what US taxable income was created from those accounts. While the client has nothing to hide, I feel it is important not to list assets on either form when the rules might exclude that asset.

    Any and all help is welcomed. As I gather more information from the client, I can work my way through the maze. Of course, the first question asked by the client was "why has this not been an issue before?" I guess it's just my luck to hit Form 8938 upon its debut.

    Thanks in advance!

    FE
    Last edited by FEDUKE404; 06-05-2012, 12:50 AM. Reason: Wrong form number in title and text

    #2
    Originally posted by FEDUKE404 View Post
    I've previously endured filing the "fbar" (Form TD F 90-22.1) and now need to venture into the new territory of Form 8939. Needless to say, I am a bit befuddled as I roam through the reporting rules.

    My hope is someone has already gone down this path, and can offer me some advice.

    It is clear the client WILL have to file the Form 8939, due to the amount of assets in the foreign accounts involved. The same accounts will also be listed on the Form TD F 90-22.1 which must be filed/received by June 30th. Fortunately, I have a bit more time (October 15th) for the Form 8939 input.

    My fundamental question is which of the following will/will not appear on the two forms. Here we go:

    1 - Client owns shares of foreign corporation XYZ which are held by a US major brokerage firm. The funds are credited to the account in $US, and the 10% UK withholding is shown on the Form 1099-DIV.
    2 - Client owns shares of the same foreign corporation, which are owned outright. The funds are paid in UK ₤, and the client receives 90% of the dividends. There is no Form 1099-DIV. (I did reverse calculate the full amount received and reported same as "qualifying dividends" consistent with the US Form 1099-DIV.)
    3 - Client owns several foreign bank accounts, with all assets in UK ₤. Client states these funds are used for living expenses, and that UK banks pay no interest on such accounts.
    4 - Client owns a foreign investment account referred to as "ISA." Client states it is similar to a 401(k) or perhaps to an IRA. There are no specific records as to "earnings."
    5 - Client owns another foreign investment account. As best I can tell, it is similar to an "in-house" mutual fund, i.e. the firm/entity regularly purchases/sells assets within the fund and its customers own a share of the underlying fund. All transactions are in UK ₤, and of course there is nothing resembling Forms 1099-DIV/INT/B, or even a K-1, issued.

    So, which of the last four must appear on Form TD F 90-22.1 ?

    Which of the last four must appear on Form 8939 ?

    The first two items are already listed on Schedule B, and Form 1116 is in the works. How should the last three items be handled re those two forms ? And for the "income," will that likely require going through a years' worth of statements which are currently unavailable to me and are in foreign currency amounts (to include UK 10% tax when applicable) ?

    As best I can tell, the underlying purpose of Form 8939 is to show on an IRS (not Treasury) form any foreign "accounts." After that, it's a matter of showing what US taxable income was created from those accounts. While the client has nothing to hide, I feel it is important not to list assets on either form when the rules might exclude that asset.

    Any and all help is welcomed. As I gather more information from the client, I can work my way through the maze. Of course, the first question asked by the client was "why has this not been an issue before?" I guess it's just my luck to hit Form 8939 upon its debut.

    Thanks in advance!

    FE
    I think you mean Form 8938.

    I am honestly considering a career change because of all these new requirements. Now they make the Form 8938 part of the tax return so we, as the return preparers, are responsible for making sure that the taxpayers also report their foreign assets correctly. And then it comes with the unbelievable penalty which starts with $10,000. Rest assured that if something goes wrong, the client will do whatever they can to blame it on us. Tax preparation is becoming more and more a risky business by day.

    Comment


      #3
      Form 8939 is Allocation of Increase in Basis for Property Acquired from a Decedent

      Is that the form you are referring to in your post? Agree with prior post - are your referring to Form 8938?

      These form numbers will get us everytime, they are so close in #'s

      Just confirm for us or correct form #

      Sandy
      Last edited by S T; 06-05-2012, 12:55 AM.

      Comment


        #4
        Here a number, there a number...

        Originally posted by S T View Post
        Form 8939 is Allocation of Increase in Basis for Property Acquired from a Decedent

        Is that the form you are referring to in your post? Agree with prior post - are your referring to Form 8938?

        These form number swill get us everytime, they are so close in #'s

        Just confirm for us or correct form #

        Sandy
        Sandy -

        You are indeed correct on the form number. I have now corrected the original post. Thank you!

        Perhaps I should have had an adult beverage prior to creating the post. Old age is definitely a bummer!

        Now it's time to go wash this omelet from my face....

        FE

        Comment


          #5
          Title is still wrong

          Even though the "message" title is correct, the actual index title has not been changed. (I DID use the "advanced" edit options to make all corrections.)

          I have sent an email to TTB folks....perhaps they have the power to repair it??

          FE

          Comment


            #6
            FE not to worry, I could not type right either in my post (you can see by your quote and I corrected) - just trying to give you a "bump" Also wondered about correcting the "title" on the message when we "oops"

            I honestly have not had to complete these forms - so you will have to keep us posted - I am of little assistance on the completion or advice you are looking for

            At least your post is corrected, so maybe someone will be able to assist you.

            Good Luck!

            Sandy
            Last edited by S T; 06-05-2012, 01:46 AM.

            Comment


              #7
              I agree with the "career change" comment.

              FE, perhaps this chart from the IRS helps.



              Individual types of assets are in the second portion of the chart.
              Doug

              Comment


                #8
                Chart helps - waiting for more info

                Originally posted by dtlee View Post
                I agree with the "career change" comment.

                FE, perhaps this chart from the IRS helps.



                Individual types of assets are in the second portion of the chart.
                Doug -

                Thank you for the chart, that will be of great assistance.

                At this stage I am still trying to ascertain from the client exactly what he has. While he is a bright, willing client many of the questions I have are foreign (was that a very bad pun? ) to him also.

                Once I have most of the facts for the various accounts, I will turn off the phone and plow forward with the IRS instructions and see what I can work out. Until that time, I would just be spinning my wheels.

                As for the title of the original post (which is still not changing) I have put in a request to the TTB folks to repair the title.

                FE

                Comment


                  #9
                  You might want to consider googling for a tax pro who is fluent in the same language as your client (or asking on this forum). I did that one time with a new client and uncoverd a question I discovered I was asking in the wrong way. Once we got the foreign terminology correct, I gained some information I needed but didn't even know how to ask until I got the third party involved.
                  "The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectful" - John Kenneth Galbraith

                  Comment


                    #10
                    It's quite elementary

                    Originally posted by JohnH View Post
                    You might want to consider googling for a tax pro who is fluent in the same language as your client (or asking on this forum). I did that one time with a new client and uncovered a question I discovered I was asking in the wrong way. Once we got the foreign terminology correct, I gained some information I needed but didn't even know how to ask until I got the third party involved.
                    Actually the guy speaks the Queen's English far better than I do.

                    But there is a side benefit: I've actually begun working such words as "whilst" into my vocabulary.

                    So far I have not moved to the dark side of riding in a "lift" or confusing my "bonnet" with my "boot."

                    In the interim, he is in the queue and I can ring him up at any time I have questions.

                    FE

                    Comment


                      #11
                      "Two great countries separated by a common language."
                      -(variously attributed to Winston Churchill, Oscar Wilde, or George Bernard Shaw - take your pick)

                      Brits and Scottsmen I can understand - but about 10 minutes with an Irishman leaves my head a-spinnin'.
                      Last edited by JohnH; 06-05-2012, 09:49 AM.
                      "The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectful" - John Kenneth Galbraith

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by dtlee View Post
                        I agree with the "career change" comment.

                        FE, perhaps this chart from the IRS helps.



                        Individual types of assets are in the second portion of the chart.
                        Thanks for the chart, Doug. TTB has a comment that they were unsure about whether foreign assets might include time shares, vacation homes, etc. Being here in WNY, I have some clients with vacation homes in Canada, so I'm happy to learn that foreign real estate held directly is not reportable on either form.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Not Encouraging

                          Originally posted by Questionguy101 View Post
                          I think you mean Form 8938.

                          I am honestly considering a career change because of all these new requirements. Now they make the Form 8938 part of the tax return so we, as the return preparers, are responsible for making sure that the taxpayers also report their foreign assets correctly. And then it comes with the unbelievable penalty which starts with $10,000. Tax preparation is becoming more and more a risky business by day.
                          I have decided to bail out of ANY return that has a foreign bank account signature authority and/or a financial holding. It's not worth the risk, and if you increase your fee enough to cover the risk the client would never understand it.

                          Others have decided to bail out of any return which has EITC. I have also stopped preparing the 5500-series of forms because of penalties.

                          After we carve away our customer base for all this, will we have any customers left?

                          They're trying to make us monitor all their problems and do their job for them -- this guy ain't gonna do it. Like QuestionGuy, I'll find something else to do.

                          Comment

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