Aoc Expense

[gman]

Taxpayers son took college courses while in high school. Tuition-750.00 scholarships and grants paid for that, but son has 385.00 in books. Can the books get the 100 % write off for the American opportunity credit assuming all other conditions are met?

Thanks

[Kram BergGold]

No

You must be post high school to qualify for AOC.

[dtlee]

Taxpayers son took college courses while in high school. Tuition-750.00 scholarships and grants paid for that, but son has 385.00 in books. Can the books get the 100 % write off for the American opportunity credit assuming all other conditions are met?

Thanks

By "all other conditions are met" do you mean that for at least one academic period in the year the student was enrolled at least half-time in a program leading to a degree, certificate, or other recognized educational credential.

You must be post high school to qualify for AOC.

I cannot find this in the publications or the code. Do you have a cite for this?

Thanks all.

[gman]

Thanks

can you verify where it state "post high school" Appreciate the help

[dtlee]

can you verify where it state "post high school" Appreciate the help

Prior to this season, the IRS believed that a High School Diploma or GED equivalent was required for the Tuition and Fees Deduction. Based on current information, that is no longer the case.

The Lifetime Learning Credit requires that the course must be either part of a postsecondary degree program or taken by the student to acquire or improve job skills.

The American Opportunity Credit requires that for at least one academic period in the year the student was enrolled at least half-time in a program leading to a degree, certificate, or other recognized educational credential.

I have not found a post high school requirement in the code or instructions for any of these three benefits. I also would like to know where this is stated so that I can correct my cheat sheets.

[Kram BergGold]

dtlee

You say to get AOC you have to be enrolled in a degree program. A high school student would not be enrolled in a degree program when he or she takes like one course so not eligible for AOC or Lifetime Learning.

[dtlee]

You say to get AOC you have to be enrolled in a degree program. A high school student would not be enrolled in a degree program when he or she takes like one course so not eligible for AOC or Lifetime Learning.

The American Opportunity Credit requires that for at least one academic period in the year the student was enrolled at least half-time in a program leading to a degree, certificate, or other recognized educational credential.

I do not take this as saying that this requirement must be met at the time the course is taken. I accept this to mean that the fees for such a course taken in the spring semester of the senior high school year or during a summer program prior to matriculation at college would be eligible if the student meets the enrollment requirement by the end of the year.

Thoughts?

[MilTaxEA]

You say to get AOC you have to be enrolled in a degree program. A high school student would not be enrolled in a degree program when he or she takes like one course so not eligible for AOC or Lifetime Learning.

Why not Lifetime Learning Credit?

[dtlee]

Why not Lifetime Learning Credit?

Because it is unlikely that a high school student would be able to take a college course as part of a postsecondary degree program while still in high school and (except for those who may argue that any course would count for this), it is unlikely that a high school student is taking a course to acquire or improve job skills.

[dan doshan]

The American Opportunity Credit requires that for at least one academic period in the year the student was enrolled at least half-time in a program leading to a degree, certificate, or other recognized educational credential.

I do not take this as saying that this requirement must be met at the time the course is taken. I accept this to mean that the fees for such a course taken in the spring semester of the senior high school year or during a summer program prior to matriculation at college would be eligible if the student meets the enrollment requirement by the end of the year.

Thoughts?

Makes sense to me. If he enrolls that fall and meets criteria then all would count.

[MilTaxEA]

Because it is unlikely that a high school student would be able to take a college course as part of a postsecondary degree program while still in high school and (except for those who may argue that any course would count for this), it is unlikely that a high school student is taking a course to acquire or improve job skills.

In my area many high schoolers to take community college courses that count for HS credits and college credits. It is not uncommon (typically a few people for each class) for them to graduate high school with an associates degree. I would consider these types of students to be eligible for LLC. Addidionally, if the courses helped them better prepare for a job I would also take the expenses.

[dan doshan]

. Addidionally, if the courses helped them better prepare for a job I would also take the expenses.

Kind of lost me on that one??

[dtlee]

. Addidionally, if the courses helped them better prepare for a job I would also take the expenses.

Kind of lost me on that one??

Dan,

I have a similar reaction.

A high school student who is in simultaneously in a degree program while in high school is not common everywhere but apparently occurs frequently in some school districts. I tend to agree that costs for such college courses would be eligible for the Lifetime Learning Credit.

The second part has always been a bit of a stumbling block for me.

The regulations show examples of individuals already in an occupation, but there is nothing in the rules which require the student to already have a job in order to "acquire or improve job skills." The publications seem to exclude sports, games, hobbies, and noncredit courses. So, I think I understand what improving job skills are. An accountant who takes a photography course may not be improving job skills while someone who must take photographs as part of their job may be.

For someone who has not entered the job market, this is less clear. Is an automotive repair course eligible? How about a course in using Excel? What about a course in cake decorating? Do students acquire job skills in these courses?

Our dog groomer went to a class in dog grooming years ago because his mother signed up and could not make it and could not get a refund. He did not know at the time that this would be the one course which he would take that would help him to acquire significant job skills. He had no intention of being a dog groomer and no real interest in the subject. Now that he is running his own shop and has been in business for 5 years, it is obvious.

A course which allows a student to "acquire job skills" has always seemed to me to be a bit vague. I have worked with filing clerks where a course that reviewed the alphabet would allow them to acquire job skills. Certainly the lack of such a course was hindering them. Some preparers I know have asked, "Don't most college courses help a student to acquire job skills in some way?"

Perhaps someone on the board will show me where my logic is messed up.

[MilTaxEA]

Perhaps someone on the board will show me where my logic is messed up.

I think it would be hard to argue that a college course (especially the ones that you take to count as HS credit) would *not* help you "acquire or improve job skills". It probably just depends on how well you can argue it on an audit.

I might question the credit for an outlandish course, but any standard math/science/computer course would seem to qualify.

[Gary2]

A high school student who is in simultaneously in a degree program while in high school

The requirement is that the course be part of a degree program. There's no requirement that the student be enrolled in a degree program to get the LLC.