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Self-select PIN and Underground Tax Preparers

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    Self-select PIN and Underground Tax Preparers

    The discussion about DocuSign and electronic signatures got me thinking, and I decided to start a new topic about this…

    I believe in electronic filing, and in my posts in the thread about DocuSign, I said that I am slowly and cautiously moving in a paperless direction for everything in my professional and personal life.

    With that being said, it dawned on me that the totally paperless self-select PIN process is indirectly facilitating, supporting, and enabling the shadow industry of tax preparers who don’t sign the returns that they prepare.

    They use DIY software. They file the returns electronically using a system that identifies the returns as self-prepared. The client may or may not be aware of this. Some clients may not care. But the fact is that the self-select PIN system makes it possible for the ghost preparer to effectively impersonate the taxpayer throughout the electronic filing process, using DIY software. The client may be sitting right there. If the guy didn’t do the client’s return the previous year, the client may actively assist in the self-select PIN process by providing the necessary data from a prior year return. Or the client may not be present. No matter how it goes, the preparer is not signing the electronic return, and that's what makes it unlawful.

    Here’s my point:

    As recently as 2008, I think, the IRS was still using something called Form OL-8453. It was a special version of Form 8453 for DIY returns that were not authenticated with a self-select PIN. The DIY taxpayer had to mail the form into the IRS, just like the old days when EROs had to mail in the “regular” Form 8453.

    If the IRS really wants to stop shadow preparers who charge a fee without signing the return, here’s how they can do it:

    Kill the self-select PIN for DIY returns. Go back to a process that requires a handwritten signature for any DIY return. E-filing would still be available, but the taxpayer would have to mail Form OL-8453, or something very similar, as they did up until 2008.

    And—

    On the form that has to be signed by the taxpayer and mailed to the IRS, right above the signature, add the following language, in large, bold print:

    I certify under penalty of perjury that I have not paid a fee for the preparation of this tax return. I understand that it is unlawful for any person to collect a fee for the preparation of a tax return unless that person signs the return with their Preparer Tax ID Number. I also understand that the software used to prepare this return cannot be used to electronically file a return that has been prepared for a fee.
    To be sure, this would not stop the most egregious offenders. Some might just forge the taxpayer’s signature. Others will present the form for the client’s signature, and the client will sign it without reading the large, bold print. Then the tax pro will mail it to the IRS, and they won’t give the client a copy of that form. If the client actually reads it and objects, the tax pro may invent some bogus explanation, such as asserting that their fee is not for the preparation of the return, but rather for their time and advice, or for “helping you use the software to prepare your own return.”

    It's not a magic bullet. If someone really wants to do tax returns underground, they’re gonna find a way to do it. As long as there is a demand for cheap, unlicensed service, someone will meet that demand. I’ve paid my neighbor to repair my car, and he’s not a formally trained mechanic. That might be illegal in some jurisdictions. I know it’s not the same. It doesn’t require a professional license. But if the guy doesn’t know what he’s doing, at least in theory, it could result in an auto accident. But I trust him, and he charges a lot less than a licensed, insured repair shop. I am accepting what I consider to be a very low risk as a trade-off for a lower price.

    Nevertheless, requiring a mailed, hardcopy signature with strong language like I suggested above might make a significant dent in the underground tax business.

    It probably won’t happen. Requiring a mailed form feels like turning back the clock. The perception will be that it defeats the purpose of paperless filing, and adds an unnecessary burden. And the IRS would have to budget for the processing of all those forms…

    But the idea looks good on paper!

    BMK
    Last edited by Koss; 12-18-2011, 06:24 PM.
    Burton M. Koss
    koss@usakoss.net

    ____________________________________
    The map is not the territory...
    and the instruction book is not the process.

    #2
    It occurrs to me

    What is to prevent shady characters from using our ptins?

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by veritas View Post
      What is to prevent shady characters from using our ptins?
      If they did they would have to use your name, address and e-mail address. They would almost have to be filing on your computer to avoid some kind of conflict.

      Comment


        #4
        We have to assume

        Originally posted by taxxcpa View Post
        If they did they would have to use your name, address and e-mail address. They would almost have to be filing on your computer to avoid some kind of conflict.
        the IRS actually matches up the ptin to anything during the filing process. The address and name is easy. Don't think the email address has any bearing on an efiled return.

        Comment


          #5
          PTIN Fraud

          Here's my take on this...

          The IRS is probably matching the PTIN with the name. But what if the guy actually used the correct name in the electronically filed return?

          If someone else is using your PTIN, then it's either being used on an electronic return, or a paper return.

          If it's on a paper return, then the guy has to forge a handwritten signature. And it won' t be long before the real preparer gets a letter from the IRS. "Why are you filing so many paper returns?" When you say you don't know what they're talking about, they'll open an investigation.

          If it's on an electronic return, then the underground preparer would have to have professional tax software, and he would have to have an account with a transmitter.

          How would he pay for the electronic transmission of the returns? With his credit card? That will reveal his true identity when the IRS begins to investigate.

          Furthermore...

          If he has an account through the software provider, allowing him to transmit returns from professional tax software, then...

          Either he has an account with a transmitter that is different from the real preparer's transmitter, or he has an account with the same transmitter.

          If he has an account with a different transmitter, then the IRS would start getting electronic returns with the same PTIN from two different transmitters. That's a red flag.

          If he has an account with the same transmitter, then the transmitter is going to call you and ask why you set up two different accounts.

          This isn't going to be a serious problem. Anyone foolish enough to try this might get away with it for the duration of one tax season. They'll get caught before the end of the second year. DOJ will bring criminal charges. Using someone else's PTIN is criminal fraud.

          BMK
          Last edited by Koss; 12-18-2011, 06:20 PM.
          Burton M. Koss
          koss@usakoss.net

          ____________________________________
          The map is not the territory...
          and the instruction book is not the process.

          Comment


            #6
            You have more

            faith in the government for efficiency than I.

            Comment


              #7
              problem solved

              Its really easy to stop "ghost" preparers....

              Contact all Consumer Software Manf...

              1. You can only print out (2) returns (must have same ssns to print).. after that its a no go.

              2. You can only efile (2) returns.


              IRS side....

              When you recieve more than (5) returns from the same IP addess.. you contact the ISP and get the account info of said preparer and make an Immediate visit. (Make this info widely known).

              and BAM.. this problem goes away.

              Chris
              Last edited by spanel; 12-19-2011, 12:32 PM.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by taxxcpa View Post
                If they did they would have to use your name, address and e-mail address. They would almost have to be filing on your computer to avoid some kind of conflict.
                And how hard would it be for them to get just that information from any number of preparers? All you'd need for most of us is a return we prepared and a business card. Is someone willing to get a return prepared in order to steal the PTIN of that preparer? I think they would be, if they needed a PTIN and the related information.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Preparers without scruples

                  Interesting discussion!

                  At least for my clients I use a "predictable" PIN, and provide them two copies of the Form 8879 with the PIN numbers printed. One is for their records, and the other is returned to me. The return is not efiled until I receive said signed Form 8879.

                  I think it would be fairly difficult for someone to use "my" PTIN/ERO numbers without creating some potential problems.

                  As for the IP address tracking: That probably is a no-go as (if I understand it correctly) my IP address is one of any number of such that is entirely at the whim of my internet provider and/or Lady Luck whenever I log on. I believe the technical jargon relates to "static" vs "dynamic" address scenarios.

                  A legitimate preparer has to jump through a lot of hoops to obtain/maintain PTIN/ERO numbers and the software specific to efiling of tax returns. I am not overly concerned with being compromised.

                  What might be fertile areas for the "I don't need no steenking PTIN" crowd is how some creative folks could buy cheap "self-prepared" software at a big-box store, and then efile the maximum (is it 5?) returns with each one.

                  That is where the new IRS Form 14157, previously discussed on these boards, might make things at least somewhat interesting!

                  It remains to be seen what kind of "enforcement" the IRS will use against preparers who abuse the "Thou must now efile!" rules. My guess is the undermanned IRS has bigger fish to fry...

                  FE

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Maybe this subject should be addressed to David Williams from IRS who is on facebook. You might want to look at some of the comments he has had about the new rules for tax prepares.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      D Williams info

                      Originally posted by Edward View Post
                      Maybe this subject should be addressed to David Williams from IRS who is on facebook. You might want to look at some of the comments he has had about the new rules for tax prepares.
                      Exact name? Link? There are many listings for "David Williams" on Facebook.

                      Also, FWIW, I might read some comments posted there but would otherwise be extremely reluctant to post anything on such a public Facebook page. That might present WAY too many potential problems.

                      It's not unlike those of us here who (generally) keep our true identities unknown to the general web surfers out there.

                      FE

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Sorry about that - you need to address "IRS Return Preparer Office" and you'll find him.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Facebook source

                          Originally posted by Edward View Post
                          Sorry about that - you need to address "IRS Return Preparer Office" and you'll find him.
                          Thanks! It looks like something to "like" !!!

                          (My English teacher is now doing some grave-rolling.....)

                          FE

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by FEDUKE404 View Post
                            I think it would be fairly difficult for someone to use "my" PTIN/ERO numbers without creating some potential problems.
                            As far as 2010, and I would imagine 2011 but couldn't say for sure, if I had your PTIN/EFIN, I could purchase software through anyone. Drake, TaxAct, ProSeries, whatever... and enter your EFIN and PTIN as my own. The only possible problem would be DCN overlaps, so I'd probably just do something like set a starting DCN number at 95,500 as it's unlikely you're using the 95,500-99,999 range. I can tell the taxpayer I am whoever I want. So I could even pretend to be you and use your name, though the IRS isn't currently doing any PTIN/name or EFIN/name matching anyway.

                            IP address tracking, if it went to a thorough enough investigation you can determine who owns the IP address a return was transmitted from even if the individual has a dynamic IP that changes every time they connect. Of course, what you cannot track is if I transmit from McDonald's or Starbuck's or any number of random open wifi networks one can find just walking down the street.

                            So, yes, it's very possible. Though, for now, it's probably more convenient to just buy turbotax and pretend my returns are self prepared.

                            Comment

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