New version of Form 2848

[Uncle Sam]

Over the weekend I received an update from CFS Tax Tools, Inc. where I found that
Form 2848 was revised as of October 2011 - a NUMBER of MATERIAL CHANGES made to it.
For one, no longer a joint 2848 - even if a joint return is involved. Both spouses need to
sign their own respective 2848s.
There's also a provision on P. 2 for student attorneys and CPAs as well as RTRP.

I suggest that you go to www.irs.gov and print out both the form and instructions.

[Koss]

New Form

This is certainly interesting. I haven't taken the time to read the instructions yet. But I wonder exactly what it means that the form no longer allows a "joint" POA?

I always thought it was a little odd, anyway. In IRS e-services, I never understood why I had to have both spouses sign a POA in order to get a transcript. What if they are divorced or one spouse is dead? A person doesn't need permission from their spouse to get a copy of their return or a transcript, and it shouldn't be necessary for the practitioner, either.

Also, I noticed that the form now has a space for the representative's PTIN.

But it is possible for someone to represent a taxpayer before the IRS without a PTIN. So I hope IRS representatives have been educated on this.

It's not purely theoretical. Just last month I represented a taxpayer at an office audit, and he was also represented by an attorney. I prepared the old version of Form 2848, and it contained my name and the attorney's name as representatives.

The attorney doesn't have a PTIN. He has never prepared tax returns, and he probably never will. He doesn't need a PTIN. A PTIN is required for anyone who prepares tax returns. But I haven't seen anything that says it is required in order to represent a taxpayer before the IRS. His law license is what authorizes the representation. If he isn't preparing tax returns, I can't see how a PTIN would be required.

Preparation of returns is not representation, and representation is not preparation of tax returns.

Enrolled agents usually do both. And you do indeed have to have a PTIN in order to be an EA, 'cause you can't even take the exam without a PTIN.

But an RTRP generally can't represent the taxpayer before the IRS (except with respect to returns he prepared). In general, an RTRP or unenrolled preparer can only prepare returns. And an attorney or CPA may choose to represent taxpayers without ever preparing returns.

And there are other categories of representatives who would not have a PTIN, such as family members and corporate officers.

BMK

[S T]

New 2848

From NCSEA

New Power of Attorney – major changes

As a follow up to my email yesterday – listed below are the major changes to the Power of Attorney (Form 2848).

The major changes include

Only single names for taxpayer and taxpayer ID.
Joint tax return filers require their own separate 2848

PTINs are now required in the Representative area.
If no PTIN is assigned yet, write "Applied For"

For student attorneys and CPAs, the lead Attorney or CPA must be
listed as a Representative

For tax matters - it's now expanded to cover
whistleblower, FOIA, and PLR issues

Acts authorized now has checkboxes to authorize
a representative for performing acts not traditionally
authorized by a 2848

Declaration of Representative (P.2) - now has the letter "i" for
Registered Tax Return Preparers.

Sandy

[Koss]

PTIN on 2848

I realize that this issue is purely intellectual for almost everyone on this board.

But I'm not convinced that a PTIN is required for a representative who is only representing the taxpayer before the IRS, and not preparing tax returns. And there are other, more esoteric cases where a PTIN might not be required. Just because there is a space for it on the form doesn't mean it is required. Think about the space for an EIN on Schedule C.

The instructions, and the applicable regs, still allow an immediate family member to represent a taxpayer in an audit, regardless of whether the family member prepared the return. Such a representative could not reasonably be required to obtain a PTIN. The same can be said for full-time employees and officers of corporations who are acting as representatives.

Likewise, an attorney may represent a taxpayer in an audit, or in the appeals phase, or in collections. The attorney may never prepare tax returns, and thus would not be required to have a PTIN.

The relevant section of the instructions for the new version of Form 2848 read as follows:

Enter the PTIN, if applicable, for each representative. If a PTIN has not been assigned, but one has been applied for, then write "applied for" on the line.

The operative language here is "if applicable." A PTIN is not applicable if the representative is a corporate officer, or an immediate family member, or an attorney who does not prepare tax returns.

BMK

[appelman]

E-services uses one 2848 for both spouses.

Presumably, if you can't or don't want to file the 2848 electronically, you can just print it out, get the signatures, and fax it in.

[OtisMozzetti]

..
But I'm not convinced that a PTIN is required for a representative who is only representing the taxpayer before the IRS, and not preparing tax returns. And there are other, more esoteric cases where a PTIN might not be required. Just because there is a space for it on the form doesn't mean it is required. Think about the space for an EIN on Schedule C.
BMK

A similar issue occurs in the website for applying for PTIN renewal. Under the topic of supervised preparers, there are three questions one of which is whether an enrolled agent or other signs all returns that the PTIN applicant prepares. I have advised several enrolled agents that I know who do sign all the returns they prepare to just go with the flow and give them a "no" to that question.