Joining the "Dark Side"

[Zee]

Burke was saying (Burke: Please excuse my presumptousness) that he would not turn down the offer.

And, I have to say, given today's economic environment (employers are laying off in droves) and your situation (wife's job shaky--tax practice unprofitable), the question itself (Should I/should I not accept a $1,250 per week job?) is surprising. My credentials don't even approach yours and a "hard to get" approach has apparently worked wonders, but under the circumstances (rather than plead short notice/interrupted vacation) I'd have asked "Which would be more convenient for you -- 30 minutes from now or the crack of dawn tomorrow?"

Your earning (impressively) $65K over 30 years ago implies a rarified upper-level job atmosphere which maybe accounts for the (again surprising) question of "How can anyone accept a job without meeting their peers and supervisor?" I can't imagine asking for a job and simultaneously requesting an inspection for agreeable/amiable associates. I'd say 99% of new hires accept the job and meet everybody at work Monday morning.

Sorry; I didn't mean this to be so critical, it's just that your response to the situation was so astounding to me -- maybe it's this rural Arkie atmostphere and I just don't know any better. And maybe I ought to try your method -- it apparently works better than my beggars can't be choosers approach.

I'm not sure how to respond. In my earlier life (after a stint in large CPA firms), I directed the audit functions at several very large companies and was also an International Controller. Those jobs would certainly be in the mid-hundreds today. However, I recognize that was a long time ago. So, I don't think I'm "stuffy" or over-impressed with my self-worth.

I would never offer a position to anyone based solely on a brief telephone interview without a face-to-face visit, and I don't think it's unreasonable to request a visit to discuss to meet with the Supervisor, peers, etc. and learn more about the benefits, travel requirements, workplace, etc. prior to accepting a position. I'd also like to know more about how I might best contribute to their goals and the training provided. I know absolutely nothing about those issues.

As another poster noted, the lifestyle change will be significant including a substantial commute each day (probably an hour or more one-way). So, there are lots of considerations. I'd like to enjoy what I'm doing...so, that's important to me...although the money would be welcomed.

Anyway, I'll call tomorrow and keep anyone interested up to date. I'm going to try to arrange a visit.

[taxmandan]

I never worked at the IRS but have been employed by the feds, some years ago. Don't be surpised if you encounter an attitude that the Service is doing you a big favor by considering you for employment, on their terms. Visiting the potential supervisor, office environment, etc. is de rigor in private industry, but the gov't seldom sees the value in that, to them, and they may not see the point in accommodating your request. They have strict guidelines on how the hiring process proceeds, and any deviation from the rules is not allowed. If it's not routine to visit with the future boss/office, then it won't happen. Your initial encounter with the bureaucracy is the HR function.

Anyway, keep us informed of your experience in the hiring process, there may well be others on this board who will consider such employment and like to know how it goes.

[joanmcq]

Hiring in at GS12 is actually pretty **** good. You haven't mentioned what you've done between 1978 & now; that's a pretty long time to try to get a tax practice going! But besides that point, what you got in 1978 as bigwig in a big CPA firm is irrelevant. What your son gets as a lawyer is irrelevant. For everyone out there that says government workers get paid too much, here is the response. Not really, comparably. And this is also a reality check for those of you out there with unrealistic expectations. Your kids making $300k a year IS A LOT OF MONEY for most of us out there. Guess what? $300k is RICH; more so in Arkansas, than in DC or NYC, but is still doing pretty **** well. I'd be able to pay off my house, fix it up to a showplace and retire in 5 years if I was making that kind of salary. And I live in CA. Between my job, my biz, my mom's pension I inherited AND the rentals, interest income, and RMD from my dad's IRA, I might pull 65k. Might. So c'mon down to earth with the rest of us who want to gag every time I hear an inflated salary is necessary to attract the right 'talent'.

[Zee]

Hiring in at GS12 is actually pretty **** good. You haven't mentioned what you've done between 1978 & now; that's a pretty long time to try to get a tax practice going! But besides that point, what you got in 1978 as bigwig in a big CPA firm is irrelevant. What your son gets as a lawyer is irrelevant. For everyone out there that says government workers get paid too much, here is the response. Not really, comparably. And this is also a reality check for those of you out there with unrealistic expectations. Your kids making $300k a year IS A LOT OF MONEY for most of us out there. Guess what? $300k is RICH; more so in Arkansas, than in DC or NYC, but is still doing pretty **** well. I'd be able to pay off my house, fix it up to a showplace and retire in 5 years if I was making that kind of salary. And I live in CA. Between my job, my biz, my mom's pension I inherited AND the rentals, interest income, and RMD from my dad's IRA, I might pull 65k. Might. So c'mon down to earth with the rest of us who want to gag every time I hear an inflated salary is necessary to attract the right 'talent'.

Yes, attempting to establish a practice since 1978 would seem to be a very long time. At one time, I had a partner in a two-person CPA practice. We did ok, and both earned in excess of the IRS salary for essentially part-time work. But, that's also in the past.

However, there's always more to a story. In 1995, my wife was offered a very high paying job. It required a long move. We decided it was her turn to re-establish her career. My clients didn't move with me, so I sold the practice at a very small amount to my partner. We had never had a disagreement in many years, I thought he deserved it since we'd be earning more than enough.

High paying jobs, however, involve risks. In a Senior role, my wife lost her job about every 5 years. We knew that would happen (when new Presidents joined, they wanted their own team). It's common in her profession, but she's very good at what she does. It's just another fact of life. So, we've moved three times in the last 15 years. Now, we live in FL and she's working for a firm in VA. A friend recruited her from her last job. Her job would be stable in the previous economy, but isn't now (like many others).

It's hard to develop a substantial practice in 5 years (at least for me), and location does make a big difference. We've always lived in smaller, rural areas outside of the larger city. I think we've made our last move (or hope so). But, even if my wife's job remains intact, it would be difficult to build a substantial practice in 5 years and I don't have time on my side any longer. It's that simple.

Please...enough of my past life. It's not important. I understand that, and I don't have a huge chip on my shoulder (as the tone of your response suggests) of what my earning value (although it isn't easy to accept). Once a certain age is passed, the value of a candidate diminishes. I don't agree with it, but I know that. Age discrimination is very real and almost impossible to prove (unless you're already employed by that firm, etc.). I think the government and non-profit sector are much less age-biased and follow the law more carefully. Also, since there salaries are lower they don't attract the fast-track younger crowd.

It's important for me to know the employer wants me for the right reason...my knowledge & experience not because they need to satisfy the policies and procedures and law. That's another reason I'd like to visit. As an update, I arranged a visit for Wednesday today. I spoke with the Acting Team Manager. He was very positive about a visit, and liked the idea.

For those of you that are interested, the IRS appears to still be recruiting. Take a look at the IRS website. You apply online and must submit transcripts, copies of licenses, Veterans papers, etc. at the same time. Then, you wait....I submitted the documents on 2/1/09, and didn't receive any information until 5/7/09. You might also be surprised with an offer.

[Snaggletoof]

For Zee

Zee, I'm sorry you were put on the defensive, and felt the need to explain your circumstances. You should not have had to explain all that. All of us have unique circumstances which don't make sense to other people. Whereas many people would jump at the chance for a $65K job with benefits, you may be at a point in life where you can live comfortably without it, plus getting back into a commuting and civil service rat race is a huge consideration. Good luck. And like Uncle Sam, I hope you will continue to post from your new perspective. joanmcq, no rocks at you either - you are one of my favorites and probably didn't mean for this to happen.

Example: one of my bizarre behaviors (and we ALL have them) is driving on long trips when most people would take a flight. Given enough time and preference, I would rather drive 2000 miles than get on a plane. No hangups about flying, but unless there is a severe time crunch, I'll drive every time. When I drive, I take in all the geography and enjoy every minute of it. It is the journey as well as the destination.

Doesn't stop many people from thinking I'm an oddball. I'm happy to explain it to them, but it just doesn't make sense to a lot of folks.

[Gene V]

Snaggletoof

Example: one of my bizarre behaviors (and we ALL have them) is driving on long trips when most people would take a flight. Given enough time and preference, I would rather drive 2000 miles than get on a plane. No hangups about flying, but unless there is a severe time crunch, I'll drive every time. When I drive, I take in all the geography and enjoy every minute of it. It is the journey as well as the destination.

.

Ditto!
That’s the way I feel also, after working 34 years with the airlines and getting all
the free non-rev tickets—I still rather drive then fly.

Gene

[erchess]

Best Wishes

Zee I hope you make the right decision for you regarding this job and I have no idea what decision that would be. I hope you will keep visiting and posting on this board regardless of what you decide about the job.

[Burke]

I'm not sure I understand. I assume you're saying you wouldn't even consider a $65000 job given the facts I've presented. Is that correct?

Sorry for delay. I have been out of town. No, what I meant was I would not turn up my nose at such an offer, given the facts and circumstances outlined in your post (age, history, current situation with the tax business). I think in this market it is a very good offer and one you likely will not find offered in the private sector.

[taxxcpa]

Gs 12

Maybe it is then vs now, but when I worked for the government a GS 12 was a pretty good job. While I was in the Air Force, my boss was a GS 11 with the Auditor General. The base Comptroller gave him a GS 12 job and later the Auditor General offered him a GS12. I saw him several years later and he was then a GS 15 with the labor Dept.

The highest civilian on the base at Kelly AFB was a GS 16. There were about five or six GS 15s and all the other civilians were lower rank. I worked there as a GS 9 back in 1956 for about $5600. My boss was a GS 13 and made $ 10,000 which looked to me like big bucks.

[joanmcq]

Sorry, Zee, didn't mean to jump all over you. I'm just tired of folks feeling entitled, not that you necessarily are.

The GS-12 starting point is taking into account your experience & all. You've got to have quite a bit to get into the large & mid-sized business section; frankly, I've read the necessary qualifications and don't think I have them even though I've worked for big firms and have a CPA & masters in tax. They are jumping on you because a) you have the experience, b) age discrimination does not appear to be a factor in gov, and c) CPAs with large biz experience are more likely to be in the private sector, but unfortunately, at your age, being hired at a firm isn't likely. Your circumstances make you a good catch for the IRS.

[Black Bart]

Okay,

villain #2 here also -- checking in with apologies and best wishes on your job quest. Didn't mean to cast stones and I hope it all works out for you. The tenor of your responses indicates a very nice, reasonable, and thoughtful person who happens to have held a high position while not being egotistical at all.

Congratulations on your coup (getting the "visit"). While I didn't know such pre-employment procedures existed, I'd still bet they're limited to upper-echelon positions (like yours/$65K gov't=$200K private). I disagree with taxmandan's opinion that it's standard/customary in private industry and would be very surprised if a show of board hands produced more than a few with such experience.

Be that as it may...good luck.