IRS Email

[WhiteOleander]

I wanted to email a question to IRS. I can't find anyplace on their site to do this. I think I saw a post from someone here who had emailed the IRS and they posted the reply.

Does anyone know how to email them?

[Koss]

IRS E-mail

I have used this function exactly twice. I wasn't very satisfied. Those who answer the questions are IRS customer service staff, who have some seniority and some advanced training. But they are still customer service. They are not revenue agents, they are not accountants, and they are certainly not IRS staff attorneys.

We've all read stories, and even a few scientific studies, that have shown that you may get the wrong answer to your question if you call the IRS, and that the error rate is unacceptably high. I don't think you're going to get a different experience with the e-mail service.

You are likely to get a "cut-and-paste" response, in which the rep literally lifts text from an IRS publication, which they think somehow answers your question. They are frequently not very good at answering subtle questions about how to apply the guidance in an IRS publication to a particular scenario. And I suspect that most of these reps have never actually tried to read the text of the Internal Revenue Code or the Treasury Regulations. They are trained using IRS publications.

I have to admit that the service might have some value in some cases, because if you get a favorable answer, at least you got it in writing, which can help avoid penalties down the road. But I'm just not convinced that IRS customer service, whether on the phone, or by e-mail, can competently answer anything except the most basic tax questions.

If you have a procedural question, such as... well, I don't know, like maybe where to mail an amended return if the taxpayer's permanent address is in Iceland or something... you'll probably get the right information. But that's the sort of stuff I can usually find on my own without any problem.

If it's a technical tax issue, I feel more comfortable asking the question on this board than I do talking to an IRS customer service rep.

I don't think the IRS has an active link anywhere on the site for this service. But it still exists. Here's the link:

http://www.irs.gov/help/page/0,,id=120294,00.html

Good luck!

BMK

[ChEAr$]

in my experience

we as a group have much better chances of being right than any IRS "taxpayer service"
personnel. I stopped calling them a long time ago.

[WhiteOleander]

Thank you both.

Actually, I did ask here first and I don't think anyone knows the answer. And, you're probably right Koss. The answer would most likely be useless.

This is what I'm trying to find out.

RE: Saver's Credit.
T/P cannot take the credit if they contribute a mandatory plan. So, I have a treacher who has contributed to the Teacher's Retirement System here is Texas. But he was not allowed to use the saver's credit. I read on the TRS site, that the plan is a 401a. That is not a qualified plan for the credit.

Now, wife is contributing to a 401k that would qualify for the credit. But, husband is taking his retirement now from TRS. His distribution is keeping spouse from getting credit.

It would seem to me that since the husband's retirement would not have qualified for the credit, it should not keep the spouse from getting the credit.

I have read what I can about this credit. But, I can't seem to find much other than the very basic info.

I realize that my logic doesn't really mean anything as far as the IRS code goes. But, I sure would like to get the client the credit.

[ChEAr$]

Thank you both.

RE: Saver's Credit.
T/P cannot take the credit if they contribute a mandatory plan. So, I have a treacher who has contributed to the Teacher's Retirement System here is Texas. But he was not allowed to use the saver's credit. I read on the TRS site, that the plan is a 401a. That is not a qualified plan for the credit.

Now, wife is contributing to a 401k that would qualify for the credit. But, husband is taking his retirement now from TRS. His distribution is keeping spouse from getting credit.

It would seem to me that since the husband's retirement would not have qualified for the credit, it should not keep the spouse from getting the credit.

I have read what I can about this credit. But, I can't seem to find much other than the very basic info.

I realize that my logic doesn't really mean anything as far as the IRS code goes. But, I sure would like to get the client the credit.

You say his distribution is keeping spouse from getting credit? Did your software
decide such?

TRS is always a mandatory thing, not an elective contribution. The whole purpose of
the credit is to encourage people to contribute without being forced to.

So if faced with same facts AND software did not prohibit based on inputs from his
1099R, I would not place the distribution on that particular withdrawal line.

[Koss]

Saver's Credit

White Oleander--

You may want to take a close look at the instructions for Form 8880, which are not a separate document, but rather appear on the back, or the second page of the form. Here's the link:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8880.pdf

Your software may be disallowing the credit because you are entering the 401(a) distribution.

But based on the form instructions, a distribution from a 401(a) should not be entered on the form.

You're right, and I'm also saying the same thing as Chear$. If the distribution didn't come from a plan that would have qualified for the credit in the first place, then that distribution isn't part of the algorithm that determines whether the taxpayer qualifies for the credit.

The problem is...

Well, how should I put this?

Your software is asking some sort of generic question, such as "Did the taxpayer (or spouse if MFJ) receive any distributions from a qualifying retirement plan?"

And you are answering yes, without taking into account the proper context.

Based on the instructions for Form 8880, the answer to this question for your client should be NO.

BMK

[erchess]

Comments

1. I found this a most interesting discussion. It illuminates the fact that the tax code is too complex for most people who are not tax professionals on at least a part time basis to be able to do their own returns and be correct most of the time.

2. I can think of only two circumstances when I care what opinion an IRS or State Taxing Agency Employee has about a question of tax law. One is when I am talking to someone who is involved in an examination of my return or a client's return. The other would be when I read something the official agency stands behind at least to the limited degree it stands behind the Pubs and Instructions. I assume we all know that when someone tells us something on the phone or in an email we can't rely on that at all as a defense of whatever we do on a tax return. And really, I don't often consult Pubs and Instructions unless what I want to know seems pretty basic. For a question such as this one I would want to rely on an actual Authority or at least on a reference work such as TTB that is written by people like Brad and Bees who are a level above me in knowledge.

[WhiteOleander]

Thanks Koss. I have read those instructions. I guess I'm being too picky. In the following paragragh, it does not say to include or not include distributions from mandatory plans. It is silent. I really hate to just assume they don't have to be used in figuring the credit.

Line 4
Enter the total amount of distributions you, and your spouse if
filing jointly, received after 2005 and before the due date of your
2008 return (including extensions) from any of the following
types of plans

* Traditional or Roth IRAs.
* 401(k), 403(b), governmental 457, 501(c)(18)(D), SEP, or
SIMPLE plans.

Do not include any:
* Distributions not taxable as the result of a rollover or a
trustee-to-trustee transfer.
* Distributions from your IRA (other than a Roth IRA) rolled over
to your Roth IRA.
* Loans from a qualified employer plan treated as a distribution.
* Distributions of excess contributions or deferrals (and income
allocable to such contributions or deferrals).
* Distributions of contributions made to an IRA during a tax year
and returned (with any income allocable to such contributions)
on or before the due date (including extensions) for that tax year.
* Distributions of dividends paid on stock held by an employee
stock ownership plan under section 404(k).
Exception. Do not include your spouse’s distributions with yours
when entering an amount on line 4 if you and your spouse did
not file a joint return for the year the distribution was received.
TIP
* Distributions from a military retirement plan.

[Koss]

Lists versus Silence

Expressio unius est exclusio alterius.

It's a principle of statutory construction, used by the courts to interpret the law. When the law gives you a list of things, it is usually fair to assume that the law is not applicable to things that are not on the list.

With that being said...

(i) I recognize that the instructions for Form 8880 are not the law, and I haven't gotten around to looking at the text of the IRC that authorizes the saver's credit, and

(ii) in general, the rule I just described has the effect of interpreting many "lists" as exhaustive, meaning that when the law provides a list, it is meant to cover all possible scenarios, and if the authors left something off the list, then they must have done so intentionally.

The courts will not interpret a list in this manner if the list appears in a context in which the list is meant to be only a representative sample. The two innocent words such as can have a major impact...

BMK

[WhiteOleander]

Thanks. I will go with that. It seems they write these laws so quickly and don't stop to think through the possible problems.

[Koss]

Modern Latin

BTW...

Expressio unius est exclusio alterius means

"the expression of one thing is the exclusion of another."

BMK

[New York Enrolled Agent]

Expressio unius est exclusio alterius.



(i) I recognize that the instructions for Form 8880 are not the law, and I haven't gotten around to looking at the text of the IRC that authorizes the saver's credit, and

This is the law as found in §25B

d) Qualified retirement savings contributions.
For purposes of this section —

(1) In general.
The term “qualified retirement savings contributions” means, with respect to any taxable year, the sum of—

(A) the amount of the qualified retirement contributions (as defined in section 219(e) ) made by the eligible individual,

(B) the amount of—

(i) any elective deferrals (as defined in section 402(g)(3) ) of such individual, and

(ii) any elective deferral of compensation by such individual under an eligible deferred compensation plan (as defined in section 457(b) ) of an eligible employer described in section 457(e)(1)(A) , and

(C) the amount of voluntary employee contributions by such individual to any qualified retirement plan (as defined in section 4974(c) ).

(2) Reduction for certain distributions.

(A) In general. The qualified retirement savings contributions determined under paragraph (1) shall be reduced (but not below zero) by the aggregate distributions received by the individual during the testing period from any entity of a type to which contributions under paragraph (1) may be made. The preceding sentence shall not apply to the portion of any distribution which is not includible in gross income by reason of a trustee-to-trustee transfer or a rollover distribution.

What is says in English confirms what Harlan & Burton have said - only distributions from plans that would have entitled you to the credit in the first place will be used as distributions for purposes of the reduction. Mandatory contributions to state retirement systems are not eligible for the credit - thus distributions from those plans don't reduce the credit.