Filing Substitute W-2 Form 4852

[WhiteOleander]

In the Small Business Book under What's New pg. SB1-7, it talks about using form 4852. It states that this form may not be used before April 15th. The instructions for this form state the same thing.

It used to be that we could use his form after Feb.15th for someone who couldn't get the W-2. Now the IRS says you cannot do that.

Any ideas how to help our clients file before April 15th if they can't get a W-2? I have had clients that work for companies who bankrupted, or the owner left town, or died or became ill. The client had no way of getting the W-2 and it was not going to be forthcoming anytime soon.

Any thoughts on how to handle this new rule? Does anyone know if the IRS code says this? Or is this just a new idea that IRS has dreamed up?

[MLINDER42]

4852

As per the IRS website it says"generally used after April 15" I still interpret it that you can use it after Feb 15

[taxea]

I agree with Mlinder. The form as a line for explaining why you could not provide the W-2 and they are not so black and white that they would reject the return altogether because the actual W-2 was not provided.

I would, though, make sure that the client has made every effort to obtain the W-2 and has documented (date, phone number, name of person contacted, summary of conversation) attempts to obtain the W-2

The client also has the right to notifiy the IRS that the company has not provided the W-2.
I also don't see any reason why a bankrupt company would be excluded from providing a w-2. Depending on the size of the company in most cases there should be someone that takes the responsibility of "closing the books". taxea

[JohnH]

It more or less depends on how the bankruptcy occurs. If it's an organized bankruptcy with a formal shutdown, then there should be W-2 forms issued on time or pretty close to it. But if it's a forced bankruptcy, maybe accompanied by a walkaway, then you can have problems. I also saw a situation many years ago where a lawyer advised the sole shareholder of a company to just shut everything down and deal with the trust fund penalty if it ever surfaced. He died before anything ever came of it.

[Lion]

After

I've used the form after 15 February for clients with good records. But, I push for a certified mail/return receipt requested to last known address of company as backup documentation. Most of my clients owe anyway, so not the RAL crowd rushing to get their refunds before they can track down a W-2. I made my own son wait until I could get his info from e-services when he didn't give his employer his address!

[WhiteOleander]

That's the point. The instructions used to say to file the form after calling the IRS and after Feb. 15th.

Now it says file after April 15th. I went to the IRS site to look at the instructions for prior years. The form is not even available in prior years anymore.

So, is the IRS planning to crack down on this now.

It is not an issue of getting a RAL. The bank won't loan money if the return has a 4852.

I have had clients that had the employer close up shop and leave town. They didn't even know how to contact the employer. And, they never receive a W-2.

[taxea]

"I have had clients that had the employer close up shop and leave town. They didn't even know how to contact the employer. And, they never receive a W-2."

In this case use the final paystub with an explanation (detailed as I indicated above). Be sure to keep a copy of the paystub in your client file as this is the document used to create the sub W-2, taxea

[WhiteOleander]

"I have had clients that had the employer close up shop and leave town. They didn't even know how to contact the employer. And, they never receive a W-2."

In this case use the final paystub with an explanation (detailed as I indicated above). Be sure to keep a copy of the paystub in your client file as this is the document used to create the sub W-2, taxea

I understand how to proceed if there is no W-2.

My question is, "Is everyone here going to disregard the April 15th date stated in the instructions and go ahead and file the 4852"?

[David1980]

It would be a difficult item to enforce since the 4852 is not an electronically filed form. All that gets sent electronically is a W-2 with the nonstandard indicator. The 4852 is supposed to be retained like normal, and if it were a paper filed return the 4852 would be sent. So unless they did an efile compliance audit or something there wouldn't be any way for them to know.

Not that I'm suggesting everyone ignore the rules. If the new date is April 15th it would make sense to pay whatever tax liability is due and file for an extension so that you can use the 4852 correctly.

[erchess]

Concur

I agree with David. Let's follow the rules.

[Larmil]

The rules are not clear

I agree with David. Let's follow the rules.

The form instructions read: "Generally, do not file Form 4852 before April 15." Does that mean with oral or written permission from the IRS you can file it earlier or what?

[taxea]

Form 4852-IRS Pub 17 instructions:
"You should always attempt to get Form W-2 or Form 1099-R
from your employer or payer before contacting the IRS or filing
Form 4852. After February 14, you may call the IRS at
1-800-829-1040 if you still have not received Form W-2 or Form
1099-R. Generally, do not file Form 4852 before April 15."

I interpret this to say that if the client has made the attempts to obtain the W-2 and

1. Has called to notify the IRS it has not been received
2. is able to articulate that information on Lines 9 and 10..there is no need to wait.

"generally" does not mean mandatory. If #1/2 are known before 4/15 then the return can be filed. Especially in cases where the company is out of business and the client has no way of reaching the owner.

[ChEAr$]

Agree

"generally" does not mean mandatory. If #1/2 are known before 4/15 then the return can be filed. Especially in cases where the company is out of business and the client has no way of reaching the owner.

The word "generally' is as ambiguous as the word "may" , which IRS may use upon occasion to denote either permission or a possibility of use.

[OtisMozzetti]

Filing on April 15, not before April 15, would aggravate peak

Form 4852-IRS Pub 17 instructions:
"You should always attempt to get Form W-2 or Form 1099-R
from your employer or payer before contacting the IRS or filing
Form 4852. After February 14, you may call the IRS at
1-800-829-1040 if you still have not received Form W-2 or Form
1099-R. ...

Generally, do not file Form 4852 before April 15."
...

I have much respect for the services conducted by the IRS. Nonetheless, let us continue to analyze what this particular instruction specifically says:


If the instruction, which is an instruction what to "generally" do, were followed, that would aggravate the April 15 taxpayer peak by causing a lot of eager taxpayers to file their returns ON APRIL 15 (which is not "before April 15").

[Black Bart]

A definite maybe

I understand how to proceed if there is no W-2.

My question is, "Is everyone here going to disregard the April 15th date stated in the instructions and go ahead and file the 4852"?

I'm going to if I need to. And I don't think there'll be any kickback from IRS. They don't generally say "generally" if they're gonna be tough about it.

But...like others here, I'm going to make clients work for one. None for just anybody wanting a quick refund and doesn't want to go to any trouble or is unwilling to wait a reasonable time to receive an original W-2 (I've already had three guys ask for check-stub tax returns). I don't like to do them anyway, so they'll have to convince me there's nothing forthcoming.

I think IRS's idea about April 15th is that lots of employers file W-2s late and many 4852 people would probably get an original if they simply waited a couple of months. This new wording might cut their subdub workload by half.