How Bad or Problematic is the IRS?

[erchess]

Let one mean that you think there are no systematic problems but at worst only the occasional person who is abusive or incompetent and you think these people are as few as they could be in an organization of that size.

Please don't choose five or more unless you feel that there are systemic abuses of which the people at the top have to be condoning. I would say that an abuse is systemic if if follows predictably from the way the IRS is structured and the policies that are in place such as rewards for people who get taxpayers to pay additional sums without perhaps checking to see that the taxpayers really owed the additional sums.

I am going to choose a six and my opinion is clarified in another thread. I think that perhaps only a third of the employees are problematic but I am convinced that the people at the very top condone their behavior and that the overall setup of the agency and its rules make the abuses inevitable. Based on responses to my earlier thread I do not expect many people to choose six or higher but the points are available in case I am in error.

Please don't choose ten unless you think that over 90% of the people in that organization are either incompetent or intentionally abusive.

[Lion]

Not Isolated

I think any large bureaucracy has problems. However, the IRS really was a kinder, gentler IRS with employees who tried to help taxpayers and tax preparers a few years back. That's gone away now. I don't have to deal with the IRS often enough to have a feel for the percentage of less-than-ideal employees, but it's not isolated cases. Employees read from scripts; supervisors are not on-site and never call back; I get treated like I'm trying to cheat the government; my clients get treated like they're stupid. And, is anyone else tired of listening to the Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairies from the Nutcracker Suite for the last dozen years all year long?! It's ruined Christmas for me. I used to love to attend the Nutcracker Suite each year. But, that's not the real point. Things were better at the IRS for getting help, explanations, etc., but have gone downhill.

[Black Bart]

I agree with you.

I think any large bureaucracy has problems. However, the IRS really was a kinder, gentler IRS with employees who tried to help taxpayers and tax preparers a few years back. That's gone away now. I don't have to deal with the IRS often enough to have a feel for the percentage of less-than-ideal employees, but it's not isolated cases. Employees read from scripts; supervisors are not on-site and never call back; I get treated like I'm trying to cheat the government; my clients get treated like they're stupid. And, is anyone else tired of listening to the Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairies from the Nutcracker Suite for the last dozen years all year long?! It's ruined Christmas for me. I used to love to attend the Nutcracker Suite each year. But, that's not the real point. Things were better at the IRS for getting help, explanations, etc., but have gone downhill.

As you say, it's not isolated incidents. I call fairly often and get a decent rep 50% of the time (no more). While you can hang up and redial for a different agent, (my) hold time runs 15-20 minutes which is more unpleasant than the surly/dopey agent.

You should be thankful for the Sugar Plum Fairies -- I usually get Memphis and Mozart's "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, Serenade for Strings, G Major." As you might imagine, it''s extremely entertaining (check it out on YouTube). and, of course, just the ticket here in the Ozarks. I suspect it may be in use at Guantanomo along with those of Eminem, Dr. Dre, 50 cent, and other torturous tunes.

[Lion]

Dancing

There was one day when I gave in to the music and was dancing and twirling through the house with two different telephones (house and home office) in my hands both playing Nutcracker music. As I twirled through the entry, my exterminator arrived. I'd forgotten he was due, but had left the front door open for him earlier when I did think about it. Surprised he didn't run for the hills! Probably talked about me to his next customer. If you heard the rumor, it's true.

[Black Bart]

I'm always

There was one day when I gave in to the music and was dancing and twirling through the house with two different telephones (house and home office) in my hands both playing Nutcracker music. As I twirled through the entry, my exterminator arrived. I'd forgotten he was due, but had left the front door open for him earlier when I did think about it. Surprised he didn't run for the hills! Probably talked about me to his next customer. If you heard the rumor, it's true.

a tad envious of New Englanders as you seem to live such wonderfully interesting social lives. While I did hear such a rumor; I wouldn't worry -- it was Izard County, AR and not Fairfield County, CT. Too, it involved a cable guy and a caregiver rather than an exterminator and an efiler.

Kidding aside, I guess we've all been caught by customers doing something goofy at one time or another (a few of mine come to mind) and it's awfully hard to explain.

[Lion]

Rick & Bubba

Do you listen to Rick & Bubba on the radio? They're clients of a client of mine.

[Nashville]

Eine Kleine Nachtmusik

Bart I get this [ho-hum] thing myself - I swear they haven't changed it in 10 years.

Seems there has been a problem with people going to sleep while waiting endlessly for someone to rescue them from the phone menu. When informed of this, the IRS felt like they would try to be more user-sensitive in the future with their music.

So they replaced the selection with Massenet's "Meditation from Thais." We lobbied for Copeland's "Hoe-Down" but the Treasury said it was too Redneck.

[Black Bart]

Well...

Do you listen to Rick & Bubba on the radio? They're clients of a client of mine.

I have to admit -- endangering my redneck status -- that I never heard of these guys until you posted this. Looked them up on the Net and I take it they're famous country singers. I recall from your past posts that you do taxes for some high-roller clients and well...hmmm...lemme see now...tryin' to think of any close friendships with celebrities hereabouts -- okay, here's what comes to mind:

I do/once did taxes for:

(1) A store clerk who claimed he attended one of Johnny Cash's first performances at an AR hicktown theater and that the performer was extremely stage-frightened and embarrassed from the lukewarm audience reception. My client began to clap and cheer -- at this the audience joined in and the bashful young performer cheered right up, began banging away on his git-tar, and went on to fame and fortune. My client claimed the singer was ready to slink off the stage mortified and but for his perfectly-timed intervention and encouragement, the famous artist would never have been heard from again. While I'm a tad skeptical of his prognostication, be advised that he was (has now gone to his reward) a part-time preacher and a member of the Loyal Order of the Moose (what other bona fides could you ask for?).

(2) A carpenter who worked on Morgan Freeman's house (he just kept remindin' me about that job -- I was glad when he left).

(3) A retired teacher who once ate supper at William Faulkner's house in Oxford, Mississippi.

(4) A friend whose grandfather shook hands with Grover Cleveland when he came through here on a railroad car (1890-sump'n).

There now -- is that fame or what?

[DTS]

I have to admit -- endangering my redneck status -- that I never heard of these guys until you posted this. Looked them up on the Net and I take it they're famous country singers. I recall from your past posts that you do taxes for some high-roller clients and well...hmmm...lemme see now...tryin' to think of any close friendships with celebrities hereabouts -- okay, here's what comes to mind:

I do/once did taxes for:

(1) A store clerk who claimed he attended one of Johnny Cash's first performances at an AR hicktown theater and that the performer was extremely stage-frightened and embarrassed from the lukewarm audience reception. My client began to clap and cheer -- at this the audience joined in and the bashful young performer cheered right up, began banging away on his git-tar, and went on to fame and fortune. My client claimed the singer was ready to slink off the stage mortified and but for his perfectly-timed intervention and encouragement, the famous artist would never have been heard from again. While I'm a tad skeptical of his prognostication, be advised that he was (has now gone to his reward) a part-time preacher and a member of the Loyal Order of the Moose (what other bona fides could you ask for?).

(2) A carpenter who worked on Morgan Freeman's house (he just kept remindin' me about that job -- I was glad when he left).

(3) A retired teacher who once ate supper at William Faulkner's house in Oxford, Mississippi.

(4) A friend whose grandfather shook hands with Grover Cleveland when he came through here on a railroad car (1890-sump'n).

There now -- is that fame or what?

Bart,

That is some clientele! Wish I had a few like that.

[geekgirldany]

Well it is hard for me to compete with Barts listing... but I have a few:

I helped the wife of Johnny Paycheck out. He sung "take this job and shove it". This was when I helped out a little in my former employer's insurance office. She reminded me alot about her being his wife. I did think it was pretty neat until she kept on repeating it.

I had a fellow that I designed a website for who said he played guitar for Ted Nuggent and several more of the late 70s/80s bands. He did not wish to talk about that much... even though I wanted to ask about the Nuggg

That is all I have in my stories

On the subject of the IRS... well I've found them extremely more difficult to deal with the past two years. I was able to get things cleared up rather quickly. They seem to be sticking to their scripts. I am having a heck of a time with this sales tax audit. Been since May working on this.

[Lion]

Fame & Fortune

Well, when I was a salesclerk at JR Robinson's in Santa Barbara, CA, (the bedroom community for Hollywood) I waited on the science fiction writer Robert Heinlein's wife. At another store, I tried to help John Boy from the Walton's find dress shirts; but it was a small store and he has VERY long arms. Now in Fairfield County, CT, the bedroom community for NYC, my son babysat for the contractor who renovates Christopher Plummer's house every time he wins a Tony or Oscar or other award. My son also saw a pregnant Patti Hansen (former super model & Keith Richard's wife) in a bikini by her pool when he took the kids he was sitting for a play date. And, my stepdaughter went to school with David Canary's daughter; he plays the good & bad twins on One Live To Live or one of those soap operas. Oh, and one of my son's nursery school mates was wearing a dress from Diana Ross at a Christmas party while her father Meatloaf and his group caroled for us.

Rick & Bubba have a radio talk show, think it's weekday mornings and maybe Saturdays, out of Birmingham and carried by a LOT of southern stations and stations as far away as Maine, Wisconsin, and Alaska.

[Black Bart]

Ahem...say erchess,

...I would say that an abuse is systemic if if follows predictably from the way the IRS is structured and the policies that are in place such as rewards for people who get taxpayers to pay additional sums without perhaps checking to see that the taxpayers really owed the additional sums...I think that perhaps only a third of the employees are problematic but I am convinced that the people at the very top condone their behavior and that the overall setup of the agency and its rules make the abuses inevitable...

...about your question/poll...just noticed that I seem to have run off with your thread -- please accept my apologies. What's your conclusion/analysis of the poll results?

Of the IRS employees I encounter, roughly 25% are either uniformed, misinformed, or ill-informed (incompetent I guess you'd say), 25% are rude and uncaring, 25% are average to good, and 25% are excellent. So I guess that's not too bad considering the overall phone rep quality received at any organization nowadays.

I don't think the top people necessarily "condone" the behavior as much as they are probably just assigned those people. I don't know, but people tell me it's nearly impossible to fire government employees and if that's true, then maybe the managers just have to live with it.

As far as employees being rewarded for collecting additional money, I just don't believe that's true. My rep problems appear to arise from ignorance or laziness -- anything else gives them too much credit. But anyway, we've had ex-IRS agents on the board here --maybe they'll chime in and give us the dope on any such "rewards."

P.S. Know anybody famous?

[erchess]

The only conclusion I would draw is that the small and probably unrepresentative sample of tax professionals answering my poll has the single biggest number of respondents agreeing with me that at least a third of IRS employees are problems but noticeably more respondents who think the problem is less bad than I do than who think it is worse than I do. I expected there to be even more people than there were who think things are better than I do and I really wasn't sure anyone thought things were worse than I do. I don't really know how skewed by personal sample is, but I have spent half an hour or more on the phone or exchanged at least two letters with a total of about 16 people at the IRS and I viewed 6 of them as problematic. One for example could not have been more cordial but she had held up the EIC portion of a client's refund and made it approximately four weeks late because the client had done a direct pension rollover and the employee thought that was Net Investment Income. Once I directed her to the relevant page of the Pub on EIC she immediately cleared the hold and wrote an apologetic letter to the client. I still have to practice calming myself every time I think of that person. But I am personally quite sure that over half of IRS employees know the law and try to treat taxpayers fairly.

[ChEAr$]

IRS contact

Bear in mind, too, that many readers here don't have daily, or even frequent contact with IRS, so they (me included) didn't repond to the poll itself.

Heck, I haven't even had a 1040 audit in maybe 15 years! I'd like to think that is because IRS has a naughty list and a nice list, and I'm on the latter. (grin)

[joanmcq]

Also, you didn't have 'depends on the service center' as an anwer. Some are horrendous, like Chamblee, and others are consistently pretty good, like Ogden. I deal with the IRS on pretty much a daily basis, so like so many other tax questions, the answer is 'it depends'!