Free advice.

[Nashville]

belated St. Fitzpatricks Day

I don't see why if I don't have a couple little letters after my name, I shouldn't be allowed to enhance my knowledge. As for me not being a tax pro...technically, I am an income and sales tax auditor, so for me to have additional knowledge of federal business taxes would be beneficial.

Fitzpats, if you are a tax auditor, your presence on the board should not be objectionable. In fact, there are many times you can bring as much to the table as you carry away.

What appears to be creating the consternation are many people looking for free advice, whereas as professionals we spend many hours annually researching material, many hours and dollars attending seminars, and work into the wee hours of the morning trying to perform due diligence for our clientele. Whereas most of us enjoy helping other people, it becomes obvious from their conversation that some of these people are in very bad need of "hands on" professional help, yet they keep posting in an effort to avoid spending money.

Of particular disdain (at least from my point of view) are those who buy TurboTax to avoid patronizing us to begin with, and then come to us for free advice after they realize the product is really just a $40 data input and calculating device.

Our expertise is not something we are "born" with, although some of us are more inclined than others to gravitate to the profession. As the saying goes, it is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. We spend many hours in research and training, then watch TV commercials where a box says "Pay us a lousy 40 bucks and you can put these guys out of business." As professionals we know better, but the general public does not. When new clients ask me to go behind their TurboTax return, my average savings is between $800 and $1000.

Fitzpat, stick around. You obviously have state and local experience, and that is part of our job too. You can contribute as much as you receive.

[Jesse]

Would you sacrifice some of your working hours ....................
Why should we be any different?

This is what I often ask people who think I'm out of line charging for "simple tasks" such as adding up a ton of receipts or research for that "quick question".

If your boss is in need of some extra help are you willing to do it off the clock? No you expect your time be compensated in your paycheck so why shouldn't I be compensated for my time?

The very people that tell me they would be okay to help the boss are the very people that whine because they don't get paid enough, lack benefits or the boss is making millions and they think they should receive more, more, more!

[Bees Knees]

fitzpats

I don't do business taxes, and have a fairly simple tax return that if I have questions, I research them. If I come on here, I have a fairly simple question, or I have research that would be backing my idea when I am looking for support. Much like what you all are doing amongst each other. I don't see why if I don't have a couple little letters after my name, I shouldn't be allowed to enhance my knowledge. As for me not being a tax pro...technically, I am an income and sales tax auditor, so for me to have additional knowledge of federal business taxes would be beneficial.

Is there anything we can do to get you to hire the services of a tax professional? If not, what is our incentive in helping you?

We ask questions and give answers amongst ourselves to make our job easier. I don’t do taxes as a public service. I do taxes to earn a living. If you think taxes are too difficult to figure out for yourself, either hire the services of a professional, or vote for politicians who are in favor of tax simplification.

Would you sacrifice some of your working hours educating people on income and sales tax auditor issues as a public service? For free? Or do you want to get a paycheck for the job you do?

Why should we be any different?

[Zee]

Once again, I like the idea of a read-only board for non-users of The Tax Book (professionals, or not). Those purchasing a product should have an additional benefit.

I also believe the content of the questions would be enhanced limiting them to tax professionals. Most would involve real-time practice problems.

Yes, each of us can skip questions from non-professionals but it does require more reading and effort to determine the source of the question. So, there would be a time-saving.

I believe turbo-tax has their own question/answer board for users. If not, there should be. We should not be enabling the company that has reduced the profitability of tax preparation & accounting services for many small providers.

[fitzpats]

I'll probably get flamed for this, since I am not a tax pro...technically, but I'm going to throw in my $.02. I'm the type of person that does the research on anything that I can for free. I had issues this year about a 1099Q and a 1099T, but rather than come one here and post questions, I spent an hour on hold waiting for the IRS, where I knew more from reading their materials than the person on the other end of the line. I don't do business taxes, and have a fairly simple tax return that if I have questions, I research them. If I come on here, I have a fairly simple question, or I have research that would be backing my idea when I am looking for support. Much like what you all are doing amongst each other. I don't see why if I don't have a couple little letters after my name, I shouldn't be allowed to enhance my knowledge. As for me not being a tax pro...technically, I am an income and sales tax auditor, so for me to have additional knowledge of federal business taxes would be beneficial.

However, I would not mind, and would understand, if there was a free board and a fee based board. As it has been said before, you can ignore any message you want. I'm also fairly confident that you can tell which questions are from the freeloaders and which ones aren't. Also, how hard is it to answer a question "See your tax professional?" Now, my rant is done, and feel free to flame away.

[JohnH]

Bart:
I lifted some parts of your post for response - I don't think I altered your meaning.

>>> A man who gets paid for his work (a safe bet) asks me to work for nothing. I become angry. He asks "Why?" The answer is "If you don't know, I can't explain it to you." <<<
I understand your frustration, but my experience is slightly different. I've gotten lots of business over the years by answering questions gratis. In my opinion, I've received more than I've given. For me, sometimes the answer is "yes, you can file it that way." In other cases, the answer is "I'll look that up & get back to you" (at no charge). In other cases, my answer is "Your situation is too complicated for an off-the-cuff answer. We would need to make an appointment and I'll have to charge you for the time". It's a matter of choosing when, where, and to what extent to give answers. I think the same principles apply on this forum.


>>> That opinion is this: I feel that responding to these brazen requests in terms of "have a little fun with them" is mischaracterizing the situation, rationalizing it, and, in the end, an excuse to make it palatable. These people aren't joking with you; they're quite cynically serious about getting good and free tax advice. <<<
I thought one of the most humorous & entertaining responses to a non-pro question was one you posted in the past couple of days and I had a good laugh reading it. You made several valid points, but surely you were trying to be humorous in the process, weren't you?


>>> As for harm done, each one we assist probably tells several others to get answers here for which they'd normally have to pay their local tax preparer (maybe one of us). By going along quietly, we are to some extent enabling these moochers to take money out of the pockets of our colleagues. <<<
By and large, almost all the responses I've read will bring out the fact that the poster's situation is much more complex than they realize, and we strongly advise that they see a local tax pro. If they do, we have helped them and a colleague. If they don't, then they and our colleagues are in no better or worse situation than if they had never posted.


>>> Actually, the worst cheapskates I've ever met had money. <<<
Agree, absolutely and without question. Not only are many of them cheapskates, but they also frequently have a sense of entitlement that boggles the mind.


>>> Yes, we have the time to complain, but that's not the point. The point is, what should we do about freeloaders? <<<<
In my opinion, nothing should be done about freeloaders. They should be allowed to post and we should govern our responses based on our reactions to their post. I'm not a big fan of censorship, except when people are being uncivil & violating the rules of the forum.

[veritas]

Bart

Remember the high maintenance doctor's wife? I still feel sorry for him.

[Black Bart]

The problem

I still don't understand the problem.

A man who gets paid for his work (a safe bet) asks me to work for nothing. I become angry. He asks "Why?" The answer is "If you don't know, I can't explain it to you."

If ther poster's wording offends you, then why not click through to another post? Or have a little fun with them if you wish. Either way, there's no harm done.

We each deal with problems in our own way and certainly it's your prerogative to "click through" or to answer the questions, whichever you want, and I'll do the same. I'm just expressing an opinion and nobody's obligated to agree with it. That opinion is this: I feel that responding to these brazen requests in terms of "have a little fun with them" is mischaracterizing the situation, rationalizing it, and, in the end, an excuse to make it palatable. These people aren't joking with you; they're quite cynically serious about getting good and free tax advice.

As for harm done, each one we assist probably tells several others to get answers here for which they'd normally have to pay their local tax preparer (maybe one of us). By going along quietly, we are to some extent enabling these moochers to take money out of the pockets of our colleagues. Too, the majority of these posters are not the "noble poor;" rather they're obviously well-educated, well-paid professionals who know that "all I have to do is ask and the dopes will give it to me for nothing." Actually, the worst cheapskates I've ever met had money.

...I...don't think anyone on this forum is so busy that they don't have the time to peek at a post they decide not to answer...we all...find time to...replies to...strings complaining about non-pro posters.

Yes, we have the time to complain, but that's not the point. The point is, what should we do about freeloaders?

[TaxBird]

Hold on Jiggers...

As you said, we sell only our time. We sell no other product.

Wasting time by giving free advice does not put bread on our table.

snip>

I pointed out all these and the client looked at me like I didn't know what I was talking about.

I am sending a letter that these accounts all need to be balanced by 12/31/2008 or I am not doing the return next year.

Don't leave money on the table. This person obvoiusly doesn't have the skills...so there's $$ to be made.

For example, why not explain to this person that the books need to be balanced in order to effect an accurate filing. Accordingly, you would be glad to do it (assuming you have the time/staff) for a handy fee $$XXXX half due up front with the other half due upon completion but before it's turned over.

Or, you could offer 'tutoring' and charge a respectable hourly rate to train her, with a certain number of hours paid up front.

Lots of profitable ways to salvage this. Unless she's someone you don't want to deal with in any context, or can't pay, then yes, by all means send the letter.

I just hate to see $$ left on the table.

[bertrans]

The original post , which is cogent and well-intentioned in my view, highlights the current obsession with 'doing it by oneself' - nothing wrong with that in itself, basis of our 'rugged individualism. But, after you hear it often enough and coming from the 'mouths of babes', so to speak, it becomes vaguely unsettling and, eventually, downright nauseating. Wanna do it yourself? Fine - and good look handling the audit, too.

[JohnH]

No antagonism intended

Sorry, I wasn't intending to be antagonistic, although in re-reading the post with the right intonation I can definitely see how it came across that way. I was just posting on the fly - making small talk & brainstorming but not trying to be a jerk. me culpa

[thomtax]

JohnH,

I don't understand the apparent antagonism in your post. I was just expressing my thoughts and respect your right to your opinions, whether you agree or disagree.

If I have somehow offended you, it was not intentional.

LT

[JohnH]

Still not a problem

So you would never respond to a question from any non-pro, whether on this forum or anywhere else. To me, that still means there's still not problem with the questions being posted because it won't affect you either way. Did I get that right?

[thomtax]

Good point

Since they are "professionals" whether they are paid or not they are personally responsible for their specific advice. If you check you will see you also maybe personally responsible.

I think that is the reason many of us do not put our real names on the board. While the possibilities are small, in today's litigious society, you never know when someone might decide to sue over them spilling their coffee on themselves. Wait - that has already been done. :-) And they collected.

[gkaiseril]

Liabilty for Free Advice

Did you ever wonder why attorneys and doctors do not give free legal or medical advice?

No, it is not because they lose billable hours or fees.

Since they are "professionals" whether they are paid or not they are personally responsible for their specific advice. If you check you will see you also maybe personally responsible.