RTRP test

[dtlee]

Taking and passing the RTRP test does not earn any continuing education credit.

The continuing education requirement is totally separate from the test.

You can earn 10 hours of CE credit by taking an exam prep course. You earn this credit by taking the course. Most exam prep courses have a course exam at the end of the course, and you have to pass that exam in order to get the 10 hours of credit.

If you pass the course exam, you get the 10 hours of credit, regardless of whether you take the RTRP exam in the same year, and regardless of whether you actually pass the RTRP exam.

You still need the other 2 hours of ethics and 3 hours of update.

BMK

Burton,

Thanks for your many posts on this topic.

I was posed this question earlier and came here to compare notes with what you had posted previously on this topic. The point of the discussion was that even though an RTRP Test Preparation Course will cover Tax Topics and Ethics, such courses will count only towards the Federal Tax (i.e., Category "T") CE Requirement for RTRPs (and any other preparers subject to the RTRP Education Requirements for 2012 and 2013).

Per your post, the participant who successfully completes such a course will still need to meet the Ethics (Category "E") and Federal Tax Update (Category "U") requirements. I am not sure the way the IRS looks at this makes complete sense, but then again, it does not have to.

Thanks again!

[Peachie]

Hi Supermom,

Those looked great Koss, thank you! Because of issues that arose this tax season with schedule F, was thinking of going with NATP's Schedule F prep, it has 8 CPE's, know would still need the 3 updates and 2 ethics, my question is finding tax law for only 2 CPE's because all I see is bundles for the 10, any advice there?

I paid $15 for 5 hours through APlusCPE. They give you a year to complete. I used Wise Guides for my refresher course and it cost $59 for 90 days and I got 10 hours CE credit. Hope this helps.

Peachie

[Koss]

Exam Prep Course

My comments are based on information on the IRS website.

The IRS FAQ says:

What programs qualify for IRS approval?

1. Is there a minimum length of time that my continuing education program must be to qualify for IRS approved continuing education? (updated 1/3/12)

Yes. Continuing education credit is only given for full contact hours, or multiple thereof. A contact hour is 50 minutes in length, excluding breaks and introductions.

2. May a tax return preparer obtain continuing education credit for completing a Registered Tax Return Preparer competency examination preparation program? (posted 12/6/11)

A tax return preparer can obtain continuing education credit for completing an approved Registered Tax Return Preparer competency examination preparation program until December 31, 2013. A maximum of ten hours will be allowed and it will be qualified as a program under other federal tax law. Enrolled Agents and Enrolled Retirement Plan Agents will not receive continuing education credit for completing any test preparation programs. (Emphasis supplied)

This FAQ can be found at the following link:

http://www.irs.gov/taxpros/article/0,,id=255497,00.html

However...

This is definitely an area of the regulations that is a little ambiguous.

I am the continuing education administrator for two different nonprofit organizations, so this is something that I am intimately familiar with.

I have spoken with the staff of the IRS Return Preparer Office, and they have acknowledged that--

Most professionals would consider the content and subject matter of an RTRP exam prep course to be valid material for a general course in federal tax law. So the same content and subject matter could also be offered as a federal tax course, presumably with the same number of credit hours. And such a course would qualify as valid CE for enrolled agents.

If the staff at the The Tax Book is representing that a particular course is valid CE for enrolled agents, then I think you may reasonably rely on that representation.

From a technical standpoint, I think it comes down to how the course is packaged and registered with the IRS.

Under the new CE provider system, there are actually nine different types of continuing education. When a provider registers a course with the IRS, they have to classify the course according to the target audience and according to the category.

The result is nine different permutations:

(1) RTRP Update
(2) RTRP Federal Tax
(3) RTRP Ethics
(4) RTRP Exam Prep
(5) EA Update
(6) EA Ethics
(7) EA Federal Tax
(8) ERPA Qualified Retirement Plan Matters
(9) ERPA Ethics

The IRS recognizes that many programs will be appropriate for more than one target audience. It is undisputed that most ethics programs are approrpriate for all three types of professionals, and that most update programs are appropriate for EAs and RTRPs.

But according to the IRS guidelines, a provider can't offer an exam prep course to EAs.

A course containing the same content, however, can be registered by the provider as a federal tax course for EAs.

BMK

[PIGLEE]

A-Z Tax wrote:

But not if you are already an enrolled agent. The IRS has made it very clear that an EA cannot earn CE credit for taking an RTRP exam prep course.


BMK

I am an EA, andI thought that taking the RTRP prep course would be a very good review for all tax laws. I emailed The Tax Book, and they told me that the review class WOULD QUALIFY AS CONTINUNING EDUCATION FOR AN EA. Now you mentioned that it would not.

??????

[Koss]

CE Courses

The Tax Book offers several courses that are four hours:

http://www.thetaxbook.com/tr_all_courses.asp

One of them is New Tax Law, which qualifies as an update. Because it is four hours, it could arguably satisfy the two hours of update and the additional two hours of federal tax law that you are looking for.

The Tax Book also offers a two hour ethics course.

The update course that is listed on the Tax Book CPE page has a ship date in January 2013. That's because it is an update that will cover changes to the law that affect the preparation of 2012 tax returns. So it won't be ready until next year.

But there is a previous version of this course that covers preparation of 2011 tax returns. It is probably still available. You should call the Tax Book to find out.

All of the other courses offered by the Tax Book have ship dates in September. But if you don't want to wait, many of those courses also have current or previous versions that are available right now, if you just give them a call.

APlusCPE offers several courses a la carte. They have a two hour ethics course, a three hour update course, and several courses that are two hours that would satisfy the federal tax requirement.

You may e-mail me if you'd like more details.

BMK

[Koss]

Question

zeros wrote:

Being 74 now and 75 in January, do I really want to do this? I think us old people that haven't taken a meaningful test in 50 years should be exempt from this one.

Zeros, are you still doing returns by hand?

No, wait a minute... you made a reference to Drake software.

Are you enrolled as an ERO? Or are you seeking a hardship waiver from the e-file requirements?

I am not being facetious or sarcastic, and I am not making fun of your age.

Even some younger tax pros may have a case for exemption from the e-file requirements if they are in a remote, rural area that either does not have high speed internet access, or the only high-speed service available is satellite-based, which is expensive and notoriously unreliable.

And then there are those in the Old Order Amish communities.

What I'm really trying to say, zeros, is that if you've been doing taxes for 30 or 40 years, and you have adapted to new software and electronic filing, you'll probably do just fine on the RTRP exam. I know some seasoned tax pros who have passed the exam without studying for it at all. They have spent their entire career preparing for it.

BMK

[Super Mom]

Those looked great Koss, thank you! Because of issues that arose this tax season with schedule F, was thinking of going with NATP's Schedule F prep, it has 8 CPE's, know would still need the 3 updates and 2 ethics, my question is finding tax law for only 2 CPE's because all I see is bundles for the 10, any advice there?

[Koss]

RTRP Exam

Unenrolled preparers are effectively "exempt" for a little over two years.

The new regulations were announced long ago, and the exam became available late last year. But you can wait until the end of 2013 to take the exam.

That should be enough time for anyone to prepare for the exam.

BMK

[zeros]

Drake -RTRP Course

Drake offered reviewal course for CPE hours in the past but I noticed this year they are charging $40. per course. They are also offering this year the prep course online for taking the RTRP exam. I believe the charge is $99. Being 74 now and 75 in January, do I really want to do this? I think us old people that haven't taken a meaningful test in 50 years should be exempt from this one. Anyone agree?

[Koss]

Exam Prep Courses

The Tax Book

http://www.thetaxbook.com/tr_rtrp.asp

APlusCPE

https://www.apluscpe.com

BMK

[Super Mom]

Thanks for the help everyone, not an EA, just thinking the expense of the test this year vs the CPE's--I'm a small preparer. I see now that I must have both, will check in on the exam prep with the 10 CPE's. Good information, thanks!! Any recommendations on a company you like for that exam prep with the CPE's upon examination (don't want to spend alot)

[AZ-Tax]

Imagine that

As taken from Brads post:

As for the reason why an EA would want to become an RTRP, it is no different than why a CPA would want to become an EA, or one of the ACAT credentials offered by the Accreditation Council for Accountancy and Taxation. Multiple credentials help establish that the professional is proficient in several different areas of taxation and accounting. It shows the professional is more skilled and experienced than “minimally competent” paid preparers.

The CPA obtaining an EA was the comparison I used for an EA obtaining an RTRP but someone in particular on this board jump all over me about this is not the same. Well, ties my ears to ant hill and spread my face with peanut butter...quote from our late Jim Nabors, Gomer on Andy Griffin show.....yes, you are correct, it makes no sense to me either just a quote I cannot get out of my head.

[Koss]

EA failing RTRP test

Here's a link to Brad's post from 03/05/2012:

http://www.thetaxbook.com/forums/showthread.php?p=134667

Brad does not cite a specific authority or source, other than a general reference to Circular 230. But he appears to agree with my assertion that there is no regulatory authority by which the IRS could revoke an EA license due to the EA failing the RTRP exam.

BMK

[AZ-Tax]

I didnt catch Brad's post. Good to know.

Brad Imsdahl of the Tax Book has gone on record on this message board, saying that most or all of the staff of the Tax Book are enrolled agents, and that they have taken and passed the RTRP exam. He has also stated that if an EA fails the exam, they would not lose their EA license.BMK

I didnt catch Brad's post. Good to know. If the designations were EA (equilavent to RTRP) and EA II (equilavent to EA), I woudn't even consider sitting for the RTRP but its the Registered Tax Return Preparer that flat out describes my major profession. I know there are those on the board that believe the EA on the bus card generates questions but it also generates confusion especially for prospects who may pick up the EA's card at a Postnet. Bottom line, it can only be an advantage to add RTRP to your EA on your business card. Ok, so I give up Netflix for a while and study and I cut back on my Burger King trips to pay for the exam. Could also be healthy for me : )

[Koss]

EA and RTRP

A-Z Tax wrote:

The topic of an EA adding the RTRP has been vetted galor on this website. I would take the RTRP exam if I knew for sure if I failed the RTRP, I would still hang on to my EA.

Yes, this topic has been extensively debated in this community.

Just a couple quick clarifications:

The original post in this thread is not very clear. I did not see anything suggesting that Supermom is already an EA.

She wrote:

I was thinking if I went ahead and took the test in 2012, it would take care of the CPE's for 2012

This is the part that doesn't quite make sense. You cannot earn continuing education credit by taking the RTRP test. You can earn CE by taking an exam preparation course.

But not if you are already an enrolled agent. The IRS has made it very clear that an EA cannot earn CE credit for taking an RTRP exam prep course.

Finally--

To my knowledge, the IRS has not published any written guidance that explains what would happen if an enrolled agent took the RTRP exam and failed.

However, the regulations that govern the entire EA licensing program do not contain any provision for revoking the license due to failing the RTRP exam. In other words, there is no regulatory authority by which the EA licensure could be revoked on this basis. To be sure, the IRS has the authority to suspend or disbar an EA from practice. But they can do so only for cause, and there is a due process that they must follow.

Brad Imsdahl of the Tax Book has gone on record on this message board, saying that most or all of the staff of the Tax Book are enrolled agents, and that they have taken and passed the RTRP exam. He has also stated that if an EA fails the exam, they would not lose their EA license.

In casual conversation, it may be reasonable to characterize the RTRP exam as a "subset" of the EA exam. But that's not what it is. The RTRP exam is not Part 1 of the EA exam, and it is not "Part 1 of the EA exam plus some questions about Circular 230."

To be sure, the two exams have something in common, in the sense that much of the subject matter tested in the RTRP exam is also tested in the EA exam. But the questions for the RTRP exam were not drawn from the existing EA exam. They are two totally different exams that happen to have some topics in common.

Suppose a licensed physician took the exam to become a physical therapist, or a registered nurse, or an EMT. And failed that exam.

Would the medical board automatically revoke his license to practice medicine?

BMK